Greta, CEOs join Global GoalsCast to Save the Planet


Is the zeitgeist shifting toward action to curb global warming and achieve the Sustainable Development Goals? Veteran Financial Times journalist Gillian Tett joins Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman to consider that question in the aftermath of the United Nation’s climate summit and General Assembly. While the actions of governments were disappointing, they see a new attitude among many businesses, who were far more engaged in UN activity this year. “The balance of risks in the eyes of many business executives have shifted,” says Tett. Many executives now think it is “riskier to stand on the sidelines and do nothing than to actually be involved in some of these social and climate change movements,” Tett reports. The challenge now is not whether to act but how. Edie completes her visit with Professor John Sterman at MIT, whose En-Roads computer model of the climate lets Edie identify policy actions that will hold contain heating of the atmosphere. “The conclusion here is it is, technically, still possible to limit expected warming to 1.5” degrees Celsius, Sterman concludes.

Facts and Actions come this week from Bradley Tusk, venture capitalist, political strategist, writer and host of the podcast, Firewall, which looks at the intersection of tech, politics and culture.

This episode is sponsored by BSR, a non-profit working with member companies to support corporate social responsibility. Check out their upcoming event here:

Featured guests

John Sterman

John Sterman is the Jay W. Forrester Professor of Management at the MIT Sloan School of Management, Professor in MIT’s Institute for Data, Systems and Society, and director of the MIT System Dynamics Group and MIT Sloan Sustainability Initiative. Prof. Sterman has published approximately 200 works spanning corporate strategy and operations, energy policy, public health, and climate change. Author of award-winning books and papers, he pioneered the development of interactive “management flight simulators” of corporate and economic systems, which are now used by governments, corporations, and universities around the world. These include the En-ROADS and CROADS energy and climate policy simulations, developed in partnership with the non-profit, Climate Interactive, which have been used by policymakers, negotiators, business and civil society leaders, educators and the public around the world. 

Max Boykoff

Maxwell T. Boykoff is an Associate Professor in the Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences Center for Science and Technology Policy Research at the University of Colorado, Boulder. He teaches in the Environmental Studies program and is Adjunct Faculty in the Geography department. In addition, he is a Senior Visiting Research Associate in the Environmental Change Institute at the University of Oxford. Max has ongoing interests in climate adaptation, cultural politics and environmental governance, science-policy interactions, and political economy and the environment. His research has been mentioned in a range of outlets such as Science, Nature, the Guardian, the New York Times, the Columbia Journalism Review, the Los Angeles Times, Christian Science Monitor, Grist, Utne Reader, La Razon (Spain) and National Public Radio (US). Check out his new book Creative (Climate) Communications: Productive Pathways for Science, Policy and Society and follow him on tweeter @boykoff

Bradley Tusk

Bradley Tusk is a venture capitalist who protects startups from political risk. He is the CEO and founder of Tusk Ventures, the first venture capital fund dedicated to working with and investing in startups in regulated industries. His fund, Tusk Ventures, has now worked with and invested in dozens of startups like Bird, FanDuel, Lemonade, Circle and Ripple. Bradley previously served as Mayor Bloomberg’s campaign manager in New York City, Deputy Governor of Illinois, and Senator Chuck Schumer’s communications director.

Laura Gitman

Laura is a global expert on corporate sustainability, with two decades of experience in strategy consulting and has advised senior executives at global companies across a range of industry sectors and sustainability issues. Laura has also been a leader in BSR’s organizational growth and impact. She launched BSR’s financial services practice and New York office, and she is currently the Chief Operating Officer, leveraging her strengths in strategy, organizational change, and people management. Laura works with leading global companies to develop and enhance their sustainability strategies to maximize value for business and society. She is sought after to facilitate senior-level strategy workshops and multistakeholder collaborations. She has published reports on environmental, social, and governance trends among investors as well as sustainability integration and leadership. From 2006 to 2010, she facilitated the Electronic Industry Citizenship Coalition, growing the initiative from 15 to more than 50 companies.

Gillian Tett

Gillian Tett serves as US managing editor, leading the FT’s editorial operations in the
region across all platforms. She writes weekly columns for the Financial Times, covering
a range of economic, financial, political and social issues throughout the globe.
Tett’s past roles at the FT have included US managing editor (2010-2012), assistant
editor, capital markets editor, deputy editor of the Lex column, Tokyo bureau chief, and a
reporter in Russia and Brussels.
Most recently in 2016, Tett received honorary degrees from the University of Exeter in
July and the University of Miami in May. In 2015, Tett was given an honorary doctorate
from Lancaster University in the UK, one of the top ten British universities. In 2014, she
was named Columnist of the Year in the British Press Awards and was the first recipient
of the Royal Anthropological Institute Marsh Award. 

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of


Coming soon!

Can Global GoalsCast Save the Planet?


The Climate challenge is sprawling and extraordinarily complex. It is too much for any individual to hold all of it in their head. That knowledge void has become a major political obstacle to effective climate action (SDG 13) as we fill it in paralyzing ways, from denial to apocalyptic fear.  The best way to learn that we can curb climate change is to do it. So Global GoalsCast co-host Edie Lush sat down with John Sterman, professor of Management at MIT, to solve the climate crisis on his ClimateInteractive model of the world’s climate and economy. Edie tried everything from energy efficient homes to a steep tax on carbon in a search for solutions that would hold global temperature increases under 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 Fahrenheit). How did she do? 

To find out, listen to this special two-part episode of Global GoalsCast, timed to coincide with the United Nations Climate Summit and the global journalism effort to increase awareness of the climate challenge, #CoveringClimateNow.

Facts and Actions are presented by Elizabeth Sawin, Co Director of ClimateInteractive.Org, the not-for-profit which makes the climate simulation available worldwide. Dr. Sawin is an expert in what she calls “multisolving,” helping people find solutions that reduce greenhouse gas emissions while producing multiple benefits in health, justice, equity, resilience and well-being. 

Featured guests

John Sterman

John Sterman is the Jay W. Forrester Professor of Management at the MIT Sloan School of Management, Professor in MIT’s Institute for Data, Systems and Society, and director of the MIT System Dynamics Group and MIT Sloan Sustainability Initiative. Prof. Sterman has published approximately 200 works spanning corporate strategy and operations, energy policy, public health, and climate change. Author of award-winning books and papers, he pioneered the development of interactive “management flight simulators” of corporate and economic systems, which are now used by governments, corporations, and universities around the world. These include the En-ROADS and CROADS energy and climate policy simulations, developed in partnership with the non-profit, Climate Interactive, which have been used by policymakers, negotiators, business and civil society leaders, educators and the public around the world. 

Elizabeth Sawin

Elizabeth Sawin is Co-Director of Climate Interactive, a think tank that applies systems analysis to climate change and related issues. A biologist with a Ph.D. from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Beth trained in system dynamics and sustainability with Donella Meadows and worked at Sustainability Institute, the research institute founded by Meadows, for 13 years. Beth’s work focuses on helping people find solutions that prevent future climate change, build resilience to unavoidable climate impacts, and provide opportunities to people who need them most. She writes and speaks on this topic to local, national, and international audiences. She is a member of the Council on the Uncertain Human Future, a continuing dialogue on issues of climate change and sustainability among a select group of humanities scholars, writers, artists and climate scientists. Beth’s work also focuses on capacity building – helping leaders achieve bigger impact. She has trained and mentored global sustainability leaders in the Donella Meadows Fellows Program, and provided systems thinking training to both Ashoka and Dalai Lama Fellows in recent years.

Laura Gitman

Laura is a global expert on corporate sustainability, with two decades of experience in strategy consulting and has advised senior executives at global companies across a range of industry sectors and sustainability issues. Laura has also been a leader in BSR’s organizational growth and impact. She launched BSR’s financial services practice and New York office, and she is currently the Chief Operating Officer, leveraging her strengths in strategy, organizational change, and people management. Laura works with leading global companies to develop and enhance their sustainability strategies to maximize value for business and society. She is sought after to facilitate senior-level strategy workshops and multistakeholder collaborations. She has published reports on environmental, social, and governance trends among investors as well as sustainability integration and leadership. From 2006 to 2010, she facilitated the Electronic Industry Citizenship Coalition, growing the initiative from 15 to more than 50 companies.

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of


Coming soon!

32:1 – The Unsustainable Ratio


Sustainable Development Goal 12 calls for responsible production and consumption. As co-host Claudia Romo Edelman points out in this episode, that does not sound as dramatic as ending poverty or educating everyone, but it may be just as important.  There is a disparity of consumption between the Global North and South. SDG 12 is the only goal that specifically calls on rich nations to lead. 

In our interview with Jared Diamond, he says that one American consumes as much as 32 Kenyans. Diamond, UCLA professor and author of the new book,  Upheaval: Turning Points for Nation’s in Crisis,  says this inequality is unsustainable as citizens of poorer countries demand better lives. The only sustainable world, he says, is a more equal world.

Our most dangerous overconsumption is energy from fossil fuels.  Co-host Edie Lush reports on a Financial Times chart which shows only a small percentage of the worlds largest corporations on track to reduce their carbon emissions enough to meet the goals of the Paris Climate accord.

Fuel consumption continues to increase and therefore carbon emissions increase. According to the oil major, BP, renewables and natural gas are the fastest growing energy sources , yet in 2018 carbon emissions grew at their highest rate for 7 years at 2.0%. 

“We use more resources and we are having a heavy footprint which is affecting the biosphere and affecting the climate” says Author and Royal Astronomer Sir Martin Rees, author of On The Future and other books. We need to invest now to protect our children and grandchildren from climate risk, Lord Martin explains, and spending decisions can’t be judged with the same financial tools, such as the discount rate, used to measure the value of traditional investments.

Once again we describe the interconnections of the SDGs. Achieving goal 12, Claudia explains, is connected to achieving goal 13, action to control climate change and The Ceo of our partner, APolitical, Robyn Scott, points out that educating women and girls is on the list of important actions to curb climate change. She offers Facts and Actions.

Claudia and Edie give a shout out to a listener from Pittsburgh, Jason Hallmark. He is on a journey of a lifetime to learn about sustainability in the Arctic and we are very proud to have helped inspire him in a new chapter of his life. 

Two executives from our sponsor, MasterCard, describe financial tools that can improve lives.

Featured guests

Xavier Helgesen

Xavier Helgesen is the Co-Founder and President of Zola Electric, a leading distributed solar energy company focused in Africa. Zola Electric has raised over $150 Million to make solar energy & storage affordable to the mass market via pre-paid, plug and play technology. The company’s investors include Tesla, EDF, General Electric, Total, DBL Partners and Helios Partners.  Previous to Zola Electric, Xavier co-founded Better World Books, the leading online used books seller with over $500M in lifetime sales. He served as CEO of Indaba Systems, a multi-channel software company that allows eCommerce merchants to manage their sales and inventory across multiple channels. Xavier has been recognized as the Best Social Entrepreneur by Businessweek and given the Fast Company Social Capitalist award. 

Robyn Scott

Robyn is co-founder and CEO of Apolitical, a peer-to-peer learning platform for government. Used by public servants in 170 countries, Apolitical’s mission is to accelerate the transformation of government. Previously Robyn co-founded OneLeap, a London-based executive education company, and a Southern African non-profit teaching coding to vulnerable youth. She has written an acclaimed memoir about growing up in Botswana. She is an ambassador for the Access to Medicine Index, an advisor to the Responsible Mining Index, a World Economic Forum Young Global Leader and a Gates Scholar. She has a BSc in Bioinformatics from Auckland University and a Masters in Bioscience Enterprise from Cambridge University.

Martin Rees

Martin Rees is a leading astrophysicist as well as a senior figure in UK science. He has conducted influential theoretical work on subjects as diverse as black hole formation and extragalactic radio sources, and provided key evidence to contradict the Steady State theory of the evolution of the Universe. Martin was also one of the first to predict the uneven distribution of matter in the Universe, and proposed observational tests to determine the clustering of stars and galaxies. Much of his most valuable research has focused on the end of the so-called cosmic dark ages — a period shortly after the Big Bang when the Universe was as yet without light sources. As Astronomer Royal and a Past President of the Royal Society, Martin is a prominent scientific spokesperson and the author of seven books of popular science. After receiving a knighthood in 1992 for his services to science, he was elevated to the title of Baron Rees of Ludlow in 2005.

Jared Diamond

Jared Diamond is a professor of geography at the University of California, Los Angeles. He is the author, most recently, of Upheaval: Turning Points for Nations in Crisis, as well as The World Until Yesterday: What Can We Learn from Traditional Societies?Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed, and the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of the widely acclaimed Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies, which is also the winner of Britain’s 1998 Rhone-Poulenc Science Book Prize.  Dr. Diamond is the recipient of a MacArthur Foundation Fellowship (“Genius Award”); research prizes of the American Physiological Society, National Geographic Society, and Zoological Society of San Diego; and many teaching awards and endowed public lectureships. In addition, he has been elected a member of all three of the leading national scientific/academic honorary societies (National Academy of Sciences, American Academy of Arts and Sciences, American Philosophical Society).

Tara Nathan

Tara Nathan is Executive Vice President for the Humanitarian & Development sector at Mastercard. In this role, she leads the company’s strategy to develop and scale products & solutions for the Base of the Pyramid. The Humanitarian & Development team is dedicated to creating an ecosystem that streamlines access to education, health, commerce, and other vital services for the most vulnerable communities. Tara’s team is focused on driving commercially sustainable social impact. Before Mastercard, she worked at Mobile Payment Solutions as the chief executive officer leading the innovation and commercial development of the Mastercard Mobile Payments Gateway a platform designed to facilitate mobile payments for consumers around the world. Before joining Mastercard, Ms. Nathan worked in various managerial positions at Citigroup’s retail banking business and was a diplomat in the U.S. Foreign Service working in Taiwan, Japan and China. She earned a BSFS from the Georgetown School of Foreign Service and an MBA from The Wharton School of Business.

Shamina Singh

Shamina Singh is President of the Center for Inclusive Growth and Executive Vice President of Sustainability at Mastercard. In these roles she is responsible for advancing equitable economic growth and inclusion around the world. A graduate of the Shamina Singh is President of the Center for Inclusive Growth and Executive Vice President of Sustainability at Mastercard. In these roles she is responsible for advancing equitable economic growth and inclusion around the world. A graduate of the Presidential Leadership Fellows program, an alum of the Young Global Leaders program of the World Economic Forum, a Henry Crown Fellow with the Aspen Institute, she currently sits on the boards of the Beeck Center for Social Impact and Innovation at Georgetown University, Data & Society, and the Global Health Corps. Prior to joining Mastercard, Shamina led Government and Public Affairs for Nike and spent five years with Citi’s Global Community Development Group. Over a 15-year career in the public sector, Shamina has held senior positions in the White House and the U.S. House of Representatives.

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of


Audio Music: 00:02

Sir Martin Rees: 00:03 the world has existed for 45 million centuries, but this is really the first century when one species, the human species can determine the planets fate we use more resources and we are having a heavy footprint which is affecting the biosphere and affecting the climate.

Jared Diamond: 00:23 Consumption rates, meaning consumption rates of water, fuel and other resources. Metals in the developed world on the average about 32 times those in the poorest countries, and that means that one American citizen has the impact of the world of 32 Kenyans. It’s becoming increasingly impossible to have a stable world with big differences in standards of livings around the world. The only stable outcome is going to be a world with much more equal standards of living around it.

Audio Music: 01:02 [inaudible]

Edie Lush: 01:02 welcome to the global goals cast,

Claudia R E: 01:04 the podcast that explores how to change the world.

Edie Lush: 01:07 That world of ours, particularly the rich world, is consuming more than our planet can sustain

Claudia R E: 01:12 Edie our listeners already know as well as we do that we are burning eating and tossing away so much that both the air and the seas will be ruined if we do not make changes. They also know that while there is some action going on, we are not moving fast enough.

Edie Lush: 01:31 Yes, so what we’re going to show you today are two different ways we can approach the problem from two pretty stellar thinkers, Jared Diamond and Martin Rees. Plus we’re going to share with you a sustainable energy solution that already serves a million people in Africa and is scalable right now to billions of people all around the world. But first, this message from the sponsors who make this a sustainable podcasts.

Speaker 3: 02:00 This episode is sponsored by mastercard and our thanks to CBS News, digital and to Harmon, the official sound of global goals cast.

Edie Lush: 02:16 Welcome back. I’m Edie Lush

Claudia R E: 02:18 and I am Claudia Romo Edelman. Very lucky to be sharing the same actually physical place to do this recording. I know

Edie Lush: 02:26 surprise special here we are in Cannes at the Cannes lions festival.

Claudia R E: 02:30 At six o’clock in the morning.

Edie Lush: 02:32 Yeah.

Claudia R E: 02:32 Actually in a very little room that is not sound protected like our studios, full of pictures saying we’re strong like superman and [inaudible]. But what a treat to be here with you

Edie Lush: 02:45 it is great.

Claudia R E: 02:48 So we’re going to have a great episode today because we’re going to be talking about how the end of the century may feel like a long way off, but actually it is within the lifetime of people alive today. Our kids, Edie will be in their nineties by the turn of the century. Oh, it’s crazy to imagine that our kids will be that old

Edie Lush: 03:07 I know, with wrinkles. [laughing] So one of the questions we will ask is how can we learn to think long term or at least longer term to protect the world of the day after tomorrow, the one our children and grandchildren will live in. And I think Claudia, that you will be a cool granny.

Claudia R E: 03:27 Like totally. You can picture it, right? Like the bikinis the motorcycle, the boots. The question really Edie is what kind of a world will we be living? The motivation behind this episode is sustainable development. Goal number 12 responsible production and consumption. We hardly hear about this goal. and it might not sound very dramatic like ending poverty or educating everyone, but actually it is as dramatic and like every other goal. It is connected to so many other goals. Climate Change, sustainable cities life in the sea. We want to understand the problem and we want to take a stab and how to address it.

Edie Lush: 04:09 So I sought out Jared diamond. He’s a professor at my Alma Mater, UCLA go Bruins and a Pulitzer Prize winning author of books on why civilizations succeed and fail. His new book upheaval looks at our modern world. I kicked off by asking him about the world’s population growth.

Jared Diamond: 04:31 World’s human population is a subject that was at the forefront 30 40 years ago when many people said it’s the biggest problem for the world. Since then, we’ve learned, no, it’s not the biggest problem for the world. What counts is not the raw number of people. What counts is the total consumption rate because there’s enormous variation between people’s consumption rates in different parts of the world. Consumption rates, meaning consumption rates of water, fuel and other resources, metals in the developed world on the average about 32 times those in the poorest countries, and that means that one American citizen has the impact of the world up 32 Kenyans. I mentioned specifically Kenyon’s because there are many Americans who feel indignant and concerned about the growing population of Africa and yes, it’s a tragedy for Africa, but as far as the impact on the world is concerned, 50 million Kenyans or equivalent to 1.7 million Americans Kenya is trivial for its impact on the world. That’s why I say that what counts is consumption rates rather than population itself. climate change is often equated…

Edie Lush: 05:52 Climate change is arguably the worst effect of over consumption. We’re burning way more fuel than the atmosphere can hold safely. but there are those who say technology will save us from having to cut consumption by engineering the damage back out of the atmosphere. Diamond disagrees.

Jared Diamond: 06:10 There were proposed geoengineering solutions of, of scattering iron particles in the ocean or shooting things into the atmosphere and calculations are made that they want to produce such and such on effect. And behold they do have that effect in the laboratory. The problem is that how a manipulation works in the laboratory is not necessarily a good predictor of how it Will work up in the atmosphere and the prime example of that is chlorofluorocarbons gases in the laboratory, CFCs absolutely benign. It turned out something unpredictable. The CFCs released into the atmosphere destroy the ozone layer, which protects us against ultraviolet light and it’s a really serious effect. It took about 20 years to establish it. The chemical industry kicked and screamed and saying said, no, CFCs are innocent and turned out they were not as innocent, but it took 20 years to convince people. And I will give you one more example because today it seems so ridiculous. One of my teachers at university, he was sufficiently old, but he was alive in the first decade in the 19 hundreds when automobiles were replacing horses on the streets of New York and Boston. And as automobiles began to replace horses, people were thrilled because horses deposit Manure and the Clickety clack of the hooves on the street is noisy until what automobiles came in. People said thank God with automobiles our cities are now going to be clean and quiet. Haha. Unexpected side effects of automobiles

Edie Lush: 07:46 let me read you a quotation from your book. So does this mean that climate change is unstoppable? No, of course not. Climate change is being caused overwhelmingly by human activities. So all we have to do in order to reduce climate change is to reduce those human activities. That means burning less fossil fuel, getting more energy from renewable sources such as wind, solar and nuclear. So it sounds easy, right?

Jared Diamond: 08:15 The principle is easy. The only difficulty is in persuading people to do it. That’s to say persuading people to burn less fossil fuel. And that requires two things, less energy consumption overall and more of that energy coming from non fossil fuel sources so it really is very simple. And there are people who are inclined to do it now. We have to get more people inclined to do it. Government action can help by making it illegal to do various things. For example, my understanding is that big cars like Humvees with low gas mileage like six miles per gallon in the United, you may incur lower automobile taxes. They can be classified as farm vehicles or other things, which means that that it’s cheaper to buy a Humvee than to buy a Prius. Whereas in Europe, big vehicles are tax equal to the cost of the car itself. That’s to say if you choose to buy a Humvee, that’s your privilege, but you will pay double the market price of the Humvee to drive a Humvee. That is a way to discourage people from buying gas coddling vehicles in. In short, a combination of government action at personal decisions can reduce burning of fossil fuels.

Edie Lush: 09:35 So the other issue is of course the apparently low cost of fossil fuels. So how do we include those indirect costs of a liter of fossil fuels or a gallon of gasoline?

Jared Diamond: 09:49 A simple way would be to include in the price of fossil fuels, the damage costs of the fossil fuels incur. If, for example, a farmer chooses to spread oil over his fields for some reason and the oil leaks to a neighbor’s fields and the neighbor sues the first farmer, the neighbor will win the lawsuit and will make the first farmer pay for the damage done to the fields of the second farmer. Fossil fuels are doing that. They’re producing cost for the entire world, but when you buy your gasoline in California for $4 and 23 cents a gallon in Los Angeles, now, yes, the gas cost $4 and 23 cents a gallon, but it causes $35 per gallon of damage to the whole world and that $35 or to be included, if you want to drive a car and burn gas and have your Humvee, by all means do so what you should have to pay the $35 for the damage that you causing.

Edie Lush: 10:47 What do you say about the indirect costs of renewables? So people who don’t like solar farms because of the impact that has on the desert tortoise, for example, in California or birds killed by windmills. What about the indirect costs there?

Speaker 2: 11:03 Yes, renewables do have indirect costs which need to be taken into account. The solar fields in the deserts of California. They do remove habitat for desert tortoises, therefore would be appropriate for solar farms. Also to set aside $250,000 per square mile solar farm in order to mitigate the damage to the um, desert tortoises. And as for windmills, yes windmills do kill Migrant Birds and bats. Last estimate I saw was that windmills kill someone like 45,000 birds per year in the United States. Well an outdoor cat, it turns out, kills 300 birds per year. And therefore the windmills in the United States, are the equivalent of 135 cats. Therefore, to mitigate windmills, you can mitigate windmills if you eliminated 135 cats. Yes, we should do that. But that’s pretty cheap. Fossil fuels, I would rather eliminate 135 cats

Edie Lush: 12:01 or maybe put a lot of bells around them.

Edie Lush: 12:06 So we’re in Europe here and there is a strange dichotomy between Europe and the United States. Americans have a higher rate of energy consumption, which is twice Europe’s, and that’s despite Europeans enjoying a higher standard of living than American.

Jared Diamond: 12:23 It is true that Americans have roughly double the rate of fuel consumption of Europeans. Part of the reason of course is that the distances in the United States are larger and your jet plane burns more fuel if you fly from Boston to Los Angeles, then if you fly from London to Manchester, that’s part of the reason. The other reason is that Americans are very wasteful of energy. I’m particularly with respect to our automobiles and we do not make Americans pay for the privilege of driving their Humvees and the other gas guzzling automobiles.

Edie Lush: 12:59 Until recently, the existence of poor people elsewhere in the world didn’t constitute a threat to the overindulgent over consumptive lifestyles of those who lived in the United States. But that has changed.

Speaker 2: 13:15 Those poor people out there in the past 60 years ago didn’t pose a threat to Americans because number one, they didn’t have television and cell phones and they didn’t know about the wonderful, luxurious lifestyle in the United States firsthand. And secondly, with the methods of travel, the first time I came to Europe in 1950 I came by ship nowadays we would never dream of coming by ship to Europe and you fly, fly by airplane, people move much more easily around the world. And that means among other things that they can immigrate and immigrate much more easily. So there’s much more immigration pressure. It’s understandable that people from the developing world war to move because they have a much less satisfactory lifestyle and they know that their government is not going to solve their lifestyle within the lifetime or within the lifetime and the children. So of course they want to migrate, but migrating also means increasing the impact of the world. Or what it means is that the, a stable world requires a more equal world. It’s becoming increasingly impossible to have a stable world with big differences in standards of livings around the world, and the only stable outcome is going to be a world with much more equal standards of living around it.

Jared Diamond: 14:35 The world does have a track record of solving really thorny problems and some of those problems include delineating overlapping economic zones along the coast in shallow water. Wherever you get two countries that are adjacent to each other with seacoast they are likely to have overlapping coastal economic zones and it is really thorny to decide how to delineate the economic zones of adjacent countries. Nevertheless, negotiations were carried out all around the world with a result that there is agreement on economic zones between every neighboring country that has a seacoast. That was a really difficult problem, but the negotiation succeeded. Another negotiation that succeeded was establishing a framework, for mining minerals from the sea bed on the floor of the sea or the mineral nodules, which essentially are pure minerals. The technology was available for mining the mineral nodules on the ocean bottom decades ago, but there wasn’t a legal framework, meaning that if you sent out one country sent out a ship to suck up minerals here, another country could send out a ship 200 feet away and suck up those same minerals. Therefore, there was not, nobody wanted to invest in the economics of harvesting minerals from the ocean floor, but now in the last few decades, there is a legal framework. It was again, thorny to negotiate. One of the things that made it difficult to negotiate is that all of those landlocked countries like Zambia and Mongolia and Bolivia and lows were screaming, this does us no good. Those countries that have sea coast they’re the ones that can suck up the minerals and there’s no way we can suck them up. So of course we’re not going to agree to a plan that allows those countries where the seacoast and suck up the minerals. There were negotiations and the results of the negotiations, which took a decade or a couple of decades, is that the landlocked, countries like Bolivia in Zambia, they get 15% of the royalties that are produced by the coastal country. It was difficult negotiation. Those are examples of the world resolving by negotiation, difficult problems of competition between nations. Since we solve those difficult problems, that gives some grounds for optimism that we could also solve climate change and non sustainable resource use. One can object, well climate change is more difficult than those problems that we’ve solved this is more difficult than the mineral noduels on the ocean floor and yes, it’s probably true that climate change is more difficult with the fact is that there is a framework and the framework has succeeded in many difficult cases.

Edie Lush: 17:17 We also live in a world in which corporations, companies, some of them have much larger GDPs if they were to be a country Zambia you mentioned it is in terms of its GDP is actually much lower than a lot of the companies listed on the S&P 500 or the ftse 100 so what role do you see that corporations that business can play in this world?

Jared Diamond: 17:41 20 years ago I would’ve answered the role that business plays in the world is evil because Zambia is not only smaller Coca Cola and Chevron, but Zambia doesn’t do evil to the rest of the world. Where as Coca Cola and Chevron and Walmart do do evil to the rest of the world. They do no good and they are environmentally damaging and they’re among the worst effects on the environment today. That was what I would have said 20 years ago and there was some justice to it. What has changed since then is first Jared has learned on, I’m on the board board of directors of World Wildlife Fund US and I’ve been on the board of directors of the Conservation International. On the boards of these big environmental organizations are CEOs and leaders of Coca Cola. The head of the board of trustees of world wildlife on US was the CEO of Coca Cola and on the Board of Conservation International is Rob Walton, son of Sam Walton, head of Walmart and Unilever has also been a big player with World Wildlife Fund. I’ve discovered a couple of things, one that they found it in their interest to be environmentally clean. That’s not to say that big corporations are environmentally clean across the board. Yes, still doing the really, some really bad things, but also some big corporations are among the most powerful forces for environmental good in the world today and that’s something that lots of radical environmentalists don’t want to hear about. I can discuss anything with my wife but not Walmart, [laugh]

Edie Lush: 19:23 So it seems that globalization, which is sort of how you ended that book is both a blessing and a curse and I wonder how you come down on it when you think, how is this going to play out? Maybe not for you and me, but for our descendants.

Jared Diamond: 19:39 I’m laughing because when you said globalization is both a blessing and a curse that applies so many things. Marriage is a blessing and a curse. Children are a blessing and a curse. How can we maximize the benefits of globalization while minimizing the damage? Globalization means that ideas and technologies do spread rapidly around the world. That includes good constructive technologies as well as bad technology spreading around the world. Globalization means that that countries today no longer have the option of collapsing one by one. Quite a few of the most powerful societies of the past collapsed due to environmental damage. They were auto sufficient. They depended largely on their own resources and so when the classic Maya civilization of the yucatan, the most advanced civilization in the new world before Columbus collapsed, nobody knew about in Europe and probably nobody knew about or in the valley of Mexico either. Today, societies can collapse one by one because they are supported by other societies. That’s an advantage. That of globalization. Drawbacks of globalization of ones we’ve talked about, namely the spread of diseases around the world and the unstoppable movements of of people. The challenge for us is to reduce the bad effects of globalization and to increase the good effects. Just as the challenge for any couple is to, increase the benefits of a marriage and to produce the disadvantages.

Edie Lush: 21:09 Thank you very much, professor Diamond. I really appreciate your time.

Jared Diamond: 21:13 You are welcome.

Edie Lush: 21:16 It was fascinating hearing Jared Diamond describing his conversion from thinking corporations were a lot of the problem to believing corporations are part of the solution. Just after I talked to him, the Financial Times came out with an interesting chart that showed that only 15% of the 500 biggest businesses in the world, on course to reduce their carbon consumption and enough to be in line with the Paris accords.

Claudia R E: 21:41 So a lot of work still to be done and one place we always draw inspiration from is you, you our dear listeners. Edie, did you hear about our listener in Pittsburgh, Jason Hallmark?

Edie Lush: 21:53 I did. What a courageous man.

Claudia R E: 21:55 Oh my God.

Edie Lush: 21:56 He was inspired by our episodes last season in which Robert Swan and his son made a challenging track to the South Pole, relying only on sustainable energy, but hallmark had a challenge of his own. He was diagnosed last year with multiple sclerosis,

Claudia R E: 22:10 but he didn’t let that stop him. Three days after the diagnosis, he applied to a program he heard about here at the global goals cast. It’s called leadership on the edge and he spending 10 days in June this year in the program to witness climate change in the Arctic and bringing the lessons home to Pittsburgh.

Edie Lush: 22:31 I have chills, Jason, we hope you’re having a great trip. Drop us a line. We’re very proud of you for taking action

Claudia R E: 22:38 and in a moment we will hear from another big thinker about the future. Lord Martin Rees hit up the center of for existential risks, astronomer royal of the United Kingdom and from an entrepreneur who has the signed solar powered electric grids so that Africa can grow without adding to the carbon problem

Edie Lush: 22:59 but first. Another great executive from our sponsor, MasterCard

Shamina Singh: 23:05 with the girls for Tech Program that actually mastercard launched in 2014 again, we’re going to create a new set of actors in the technology space that heretofore just haven’t been there unless we make sure that women and girls have access to the learning, to the tools, to the education that’s required to not only succeed in this new economy that actually shape the new economy, we won’t realize the potential of what’s possible. So girls for tech is about creating future problem solvers. That’s how we see girls in the future and right now. So we have to make sure that the stem principles are shared equally and we have a goal actually to reach 200,000 girls by 2020 we’re halfway there in 25 countries because we’re a global company with network all over the world. We’re in 210 markets. When you’re a company like mastercard who has for each, everywhere ubiquitous, you have an opportunity to reach everyone everywhere.

Edie Lush: 24:09 That’s Shamina Singh from mastercard. Later on we’ll hear from Tara Nathan on how mastercard used it’s fin tech skills to deliver humanitarian aid.

Claudia R E: 24:19 But now we go from Ucla to Cambridge. We do not always spend so much so much time the ivory tower Edie.

Edie Lush: 24:26 I know, I couldn’t. I couldn’t resist an interview with Martin Rees because I have wanted to interview him for ages. My only regret is that I couldn’t find a way to get into his views on black holes or whether we should send people into space or leave it to robots.

Sir Martin Rees: 24:43 The theme of my book on the future is that the world has existed for 45 million centuries, but this is really the first century when one species, the human species can determine the planet’s fate. And this is the two reasons. One is that, uh, there are more others were more empowered by technology. We use more resources and we are having a heavy footprint, which is affecting the biosphere and affecting the climate.

Edie Lush: 25:13 Sir Martin talks about being deep in the anthropocene. The moment we’re in right now, when one species, the human race is so empowered and dominant that it has the planet’s future in his hands. I asked him if that means we’re creating measurable physical changes to Earth that are on a geological timescale,

Sir Martin Rees: 25:33 well a short-term geological time scale really. And uh, one of the pointers of the biosphere and the climate have been changed going very slow timescales, whereas they’re now changing on a human timescale. Of the lesson the century, which is a close, very, very much faster. And that’s why species can’t adapt to climate change and a leading to mass extinctions. And sadly we are risking destroying the book of life before we’ve read it. If we have mass extinctions,

Claudia R E: 26:01 Jared Diamond’s spoke about internalizing the externality or making the cost of a car include its impact on the environment. Martin Reese spoke about taking another concept, the discount rate commonly used in finance to determine What is worth spending now to achieve some value in the future? And what happens when you apply that approach to our impact on the environment?

Sir Martin Rees: 26:26 Well, everyone values immediate benefits rather than deferred benefits. And of course this is a standard discount rate that’s used in all economic decision making. How much more you value having something now compared to one year or 10 years or 50 years in the future. And of course, uh, this discount rate which is used by banks and everyone else is determined by a concatenation of economic factors. But the point I would like to emphasize is that the discount rate, which is appropriate in making many economic decisions is not the one which is appropriate when we are thinking about the future of generations as yet unborn. And uh, when we think about them, we’ve got to not value less. What happens at the end of ascension and now we’ve got to prepare to spend money now in order to alleviate any burdens that people at the end of ascension will have. And I think the psychological reason for this is that we do care about the life chances of babies born today who’ll be alive in the 22nd century. And if it would be shameful if the legacy that we left for future generations was a depleted and more dangerous world.

Claudia R E: 27:39 Part of the problem is that making decisions for those who will live in 2100 requires making real sacrifices today. I mean spending sacrifices, lowering investment rates, lower in consumption, a lower discount rate. But we have done it before.

Edie Lush: 27:57 I asked Sir Martin if it’s fair to say that climate change isn’t a scientific challenge anymore because we actually know the science,

Sir Martin Rees: 28:05 we know enough science to know there’s a substantial risk of something really bad by the end of the century. And that’s why we need to take precautions to remove that risk. The most important thing we could do to, uh, reduce the risk of long term climate change would be to accelerate research and development into all forms of clean energy. The first of the research is done, the quicker advances we’ve made and the cost will come down. And if you think of India, where they are now depend on energy from smokey stoves, burning wood and Dung, they need more energy. They need a grid of some kind. And if we can accelerate the development of clean energy so cheap, then they will leapfrog directly to clean energy and not build coal fire power stations. Its what they do otherwise. So to accelerate clean energy development is I think an important global goal and the deed would be hard to think of a more inspirational challenge for young scientists and engineers than to develop clean energy quickly for the whole world.

Edie Lush: 29:12 There obviously needs to be commitment from governments and more regulation and more encouragement for business to invest in these areas as well as for universities to invest in research. But how do you make that happen?

Sir Martin Rees: 29:30 Well obviously the governments can provide the right incentives and a carbon tax, particularly a fiscally neutral carbon tax where the money raised in the tax is used to lower other taxes. That’s a very attractive idea. But the important requirement is to make the public care so the politicians feel they can take these long term decisions and prioritize the longterm without losing votes. And that’s the important thing which we are lacking. So we need more charismatic individuals who can actually persuade the public that we need to do this and it’d be good in the long run. I think when we look back through history, we know that most major changes were initiated by a few key figures and then became mass movements and then the politicians took them up and took action. That’s true of slavery. It’s true of a civil rights that’s true of gay rights and we hope that will become true of the environment. But as apart from that, I think we do have to incentivize the kind of behavior which is helpful environmentally by, uh, appropriate taxes and regulations.

Edie Lush: 30:50 So it’s always part of each episode to present someone who’s out there trying to solve the problems we described. Today that person is Xavier Helgeson an entrepreneur who is doing one of the things Martin Rees called for accelerating clean energy in poor countries.

Xavier Helgesen: 31:08 the average African only uses one or 2% of the power of the average American. And the thinking was that if people could get started with clean energy and use that as their primary source of power and that adding more clean energy was the cheapest and most reliable way to get more power than people would keep using it in the uh, electrical system would grow up in a distributed manner. People know what electricity is, people know electricities everywhere. The question for them is how do I get it in my house and can I afford it? And if I get a solar power system, will it work? And will it keep working? People focus on the solar panel, but really the essence of an off grid solar power system is the smart battery and the battery needs to last for years. So the reason people typically choose our systems is because either they have no electric grid connection or that electric grid connection is unreliable or, or unstable self sufficiency is very, very important to people in these environments because you never know what tomorrow will bring.

Edie Lush: 32:15 I asked Xavier how it works and why it’s affordable.

Xavier Helgesen: 32:19 We designed the capacity based on your needs in a particular segment. So one common example might be a solar power system where you could power your lights and a TV and a fan, but couldn’t power an air conditioner or a fridge to an American that might be unacceptable. But to a middle class African or Indian household, that could be exactly what they need to solve their electrical problem. And designing for the specific use allows you to hit cost targets that allow you to be as affordable as $10 a month. So one other aspect we focus on is integrating the financing into the hardware. So it works like a prepaid mobile phone where people pay in small increments and when they make a payment via their mobile phone, the solar power system in their home unlocks and produces power. And this allows us to extend financing at lower rates even to rural African customers who don’t have traditional credit

Xavier Helgesen: 33:21 Well, we don’t always realize when we have discussions about consumption or over consumption, we don’t always talk about over consumption of what and is that resource finite or, or not finite. So electricity is not really finite. We can produce many, many multiples of what we consume, even if we were all a huge energy gluttons because there’s lots of ways to produce power. And the good news today is that a solar panel on a rooftop is the cheapest source of electricity for the vast majority of people in the world. So the trick then becomes an integration problem. How do we integrate that solar electricity, which happens at random times during the day when the sun shines to serve a billion people with reliable power and allow people to build networks of self generated power. And this becomes very, very powerful because then communities of any scale, whether it’s just myself and my neighbor, whether it’s my town, they can electrify in a way that’s entirely under their control. Most people aspire to own a home rather than rent, but almost everyone in the world rents their electricity. Now I can imagine quite a few people would prefer to own that either themselves or cooperatively with other members of their community.

Claudia R E: 34:46 Edie 1 image sticks to my mind of like from all of the episodes, everything that we heard. The problem is not population growth. It is how much we consume. I mean, if we all consume like Kenyans, the planet will be okay, but we all consume like Americans, then the world is going to be toast. Yet Kenyan’s understandably want to improve their lives and that means consuming more. I think that both Martin Rees and Diamond made the point that we need to find some middle ground. Some poor countries will increase consumption, but that means that even more pressure should be put into the richer countries to reduce their levels of consumption. But that was mind blowing for me. It’s not about the population growth is about consumption. Yeah, crazy.

Edie Lush: 35:33 So that means that everybody needs to make changes and that includes big corporations like oil companies. I was amazed to see the BP report recently, the new chair of BP, Helge Lund saying that the world can’t continue along its current path and that a faster transition will require a huge reengineering of the energy system that’s going to present a significant challenge for the world’s biggest oil and gas companies. And did you see just yesterday, a collection of those big oil and gas companies were together with the pope in the Vatican signing an agreement saying that they were going to adhere to the Paris agreement. So Martin Reese had talked to me about how the world needs more of these big personalities like the Pope, like David Attenborough using their influence to have people and companies make changes. So I was pretty excited to see that.

Claudia R E: 36:24 Yeah, and I’ve seen it here. I mean like people are moving away from, depending on, government only since leadership is not that clear anymore. So people and influencers such as, you know, like companies, CEOs, people that they trust, like David Attenborough, are the one that are taking gonna take this stage

Edie Lush: 36:44 and we’ve seen insurance companies like Munich Re saying, we have to recognize a climate risk much more than we do, which of course would increase the justification for us paying now to protect us later. Back to Martin Rees’s point

Claudia R E: 36:59 the UN is planning a summit on this topic in September. As a fact the secretary general is up on to his neck in this. Well actually, he was in the Pacific Ocean up to his knees for a cover photo for Time magazine, just to dramatize the plight of Pacific island nations that are drowning like the ones that we’ve spoken to before, like Palau. I just wonder Edie, what do you think of the impact that documenters have had on the consumption of fast food? For example, do you remember supersize me or Cowspiracy maybe there’s a need to have more documentaries on plastic, carbon, fresh water, aquifers, and all about the cycle of consumption. I still don’t have a sense that we cracked the zeitgeist

Edie Lush: 37:46 I agree. I mean I, I have seen just in the tube in the last week more and more ads for different products from Unilever for example, who I know is promising to be a 100% recyclable, a real cutback on single use plastics. I’ve seen some incredible new innovation. It does need to be taken up a lot faster.

Claudia R E: 38:06 And we are here recording from Cannes. We are at the Cannes advertisement festival. And Edie, yesterday was my first day judging.

Edie Lush: 38:13 How did it go?

Claudia R E: 38:14 Well I saw a lot of publicity like last year on earth, on plastic, on consumption, how companies should totally disappears, S for example. And how that, I think that that’s going to become even more sexy in the future moving forward.

Edie Lush: 38:31 And just walking down the cross set. I’ve seen a lot about equality, about diversity, about inclusion. So it does feel like the words at least are getting out there.

Claudia R E: 38:40 And the listeners, if you know of documentaries that we should be highlighting on the topics is if you know of any activity that we should be highlighting, let us know.

Edie Lush: 38:53 And on the global goalsCast, we always give you three facts you can take away to look smart in front of your mother in law and three actions that you can take and to date those come from our partner, apolitical from Robyn Scott.

Robyn Scott: 39:08 It’s such a pleasure to join this important podcast to share three potion facts and three simple actions for driving responsible consumption and production. The first fact is that our current population of 7.7 billion people is expected to grow by a massive 26% by 2050 that’s according to the UN’s latest population report, which brings me to fact 2 the book Drawdown, surprisingly ranked educating girls and family planning as the sixth and seventh most important strategies for reducing climate change. The third fact is that responsible consumption increasingly invoke opportunities, not sacrifices take Amsterdam sharing economy initiative, which is building shared services that not only help us reduce waste, but also save us money and bring our communities closer together. And in a world where jobs are increasingly being lost to automation, the International Labor Organization estimates that the green economy could create 24 million jobs by 2030 now onto three actions. First, reduce the animal products you consume. Animal agriculture accounts for whopping 14% or more of global emissions, so go and buy some of those new meat alternatives like impossible burgers. This not only reduces your meat consumption, it also incentivizes private investors and governments to put more money into innovation around alternatives to meat. Second, read the book Drawdown, which tells you all the things you can do and shouldn’t do and what matters most. It also has some amazing facts like how you dispose of your refrigerator really, really matters. Third vote for politicians with policy solutions such as jacinda ardern’s wellbeing budget, which takes the focus off GDP alone. The scale of this challenge requires a scale of policy, so follow apolitical on Twitter and at apolitical dot. CO for examples of policies that are working around the planet for the planet. Thanks for listening and for caring.

Edie Lush: 41:21 And now a little more from our sponsor mastercard.

Tara Nathan: 41:27 What the mastercard aid network was was a digital wallet that enabled a beneficiary who was sitting in a remote place, whether in Yemen in a disconnected environment with no mobile phone coverage with no power, no electricity, the ability to receive digitally their food and their humanitarian benefits. What this does is because they’re receiving it digitally, it gives that beneficiary the ability to redeem at a local marketplace just like you or I would. It enables them to redeem their benefits for fresh fruits and fresh vegetables and to actually make healthy choices for their families. The other side of that really is what it does for the organizations that service and that serve these beneficiaries like the the NGOs who we partner with and that is, it gives them a more cost effective way, a more auditable, a more transparent way to provide these benefits.

Edie Lush: 42:28 That was Tara Nathan of mastercard who sponsored the entire season of global goals cast, we thank them for being with us the entire way.

Claudia R E: 42:40 Edie, that’s it. This is episode and season two of the global goals casts. Thank you. Thank you to all our guests. Thank you to all our listeners. You can find out more on our website, global Please like and subscribe where ever you get your podcast and follow us on social media at global goals cast.

Edie Lush: 43:02 See you in season three.

Claudia R E: 43:04 See you in season three, Sayonara

New Speaker: 43:04 [inaudible] music in this episode was by Neil Hale. Andrew Phillips, Angelica Garcia, Simon James, Katie Crown and Ashish Paliwal. This episode was made possible with the support of mastercard, CBS News digital, and Harmon, the official sound of global goals cast.

Edie Lush: 43:37 We want to give us the special thanks to our interns for the summer. Darcy Nelson. Addie Gibsy and Ashley Esquivel. We could not have done this without you and thank you to Keith Reynolds from spoke media for lending us his ear.

Make Food Not War


The single largest cause of acute hunger in the world is not a lack of food, it is war and conflict. The World Food Program says conflict has pushed 74 million people to the edge of starvation. One of the most severe situations is in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where militias and marauding gangs have driven millions of farmers off their land. GGC discusses the crisis with the director of the World Food Program in the DRC, Claude Jibidar, Rosette Kasereka, a farmer and Zachary, a former child soldier. The fertile DRC could easily grow enough food for all its people and all of Africa, for that matter, if the fighting would only stop, Jibidar tells co-hosts Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman. Humanitarian groups and governments have adopted a new approach focused on ending need as well as delivering aid. In the DRC, that need is an end to violence. So WFP and other groups have focused on peacemaking. Kasereka credits a WFP program for uniting farmers. “Through union is power,” she says, ”we have become one. It has brought us together in this in this conflict situation that we lived before.“

This episode also features an interview with Tara Nathan, Executive Vice President of Humanitarian & Development at our sponsor, Mastercard. She describes how Mastercard helps humanitarian groups, corporations and governments to get out of their silos and work together.

Since 2012, Mastercard and the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) have been working together to deliver innovative solutions to help create a world with Zero Hunger. WFP works in more than 80 countries around the world, feeding people caught in conflict and disasters, and laying the foundations for a better future.

In 2017, Mastercard launched the 100 Million Meals initiative to raise funds for children in need around the world via cause marketing campaigns and events,. These campaigns support WFP school meals programmes, which can mean not only better nutrition and health, but also increased access to and achievement in education.

Featured guests


Zachary spent 5 years as a child soldier for an armed militia in the DRC – aged 13 to 18. Alongside other young people who had left the armed groups he underwent training organised by local NGOs, UNDP and UNICEF.  WFP ensured that he was fed while at the National Institute for Professional Training (Institut National de Formation Professionnelle: INPP). Now he has started a business using the computer and printer he was given as part of the training. He writes resumes and letters on Word, makes PowerPoint presentations and downloads movies and music for the people of his village and hopes one day to be a computer engineer. Since returning, he has dissuaded more young people from joining armed groups as he did.

Rosette Kasereka

Rosette Kasereka is a farmer in the North Kivu province of the DRC. She was displaced from her home for many years and was unable to farm. Since being able to return to her home she has participated in WFP and FAO’s resilience-building project known as “Purchase for Progress”, or P4P. The project helps farmers increase output and improve access to markets. Rosette now manages a warehouse which as a result of P4P is bringing in more produce than ever before. The increased amounts of money this project creates allows the farms to grow and for children to be sent to school. Rosette now passes on what she has learnt from being a part of P4P to other female farmers.

Claude Jibidar

Mr. Claude Jibidar arrived in DR Congo in July 2016, appointed as Representative and Country Director, where he had previously served in different capacity from 1999 to 2002 and from 2006 to 2008.  Mr. Jibidar brings more than 25 years of non-profit and corporate leadership experience focusing on food security, nutrition and emergency response strategies. Mr. Jibidar guides a team of about 500 staff members in the Country Office and across 8 Area and field Offices aiming at meeting the immediate food needs of vulnerable Congolese. He had served previously, three years in the same capacity in Kabul Afghanistan, leading a team of more than 550 staff across 6 field offices.   

Benjamin Anguandia

Benjamin Anguandia works for the World Food Programme in the DRC. He has lived in the DRC for all of his life excluding 5 years that he spent in Kenya as a young boy. He studied in the DRC majoring in biochemistry in high school and communications at university. He has experience living and working in insecure environments in the DRC and uses his knowledge in areas such as health and food security to help communities.

Tara Nathan

Tara Nathan is Executive Vice President for the Humanitarian & Development sector at Mastercard. In this role, she leads the company’s strategy to develop and scale products & solutions for the Base of the Pyramid. The Humanitarian & Development team is dedicated to creating an ecosystem that streamlines access to education, health, commerce, and other vital services for the most vulnerable communities. Tara’s team is focused on driving commercially sustainable social impact. Before Mastercard, she worked at Mobile Payment Solutions as the chief executive officer leading the innovation and commercial development of the Mastercard Mobile Payments Gateway a platform designed to facilitate mobile payments for consumers around the world. Before joining Mastercard, Ms. Nathan worked in various managerial positions at Citigroup’s retail banking business and was a diplomat in the U.S. Foreign Service working in Taiwan, Japan and China. She earned a BSFS from the Georgetown School of Foreign Service and an MBA from The Wharton School of Business.

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of


Claude Jibidar: 00:05 If people in the DRC cannot plant because they are driven away from the field that don’t have what they need to feed themselves every day.

Rosette: 00:19 (Native Language) When there is war, everything is destroyed. No school for the children and no food.

Claude Jibidar: 00:27 Surviving sometimes means being on the side of those who hold the guns.

Zachary: 00:36 (Native Language) Life was very difficult to surviving, getting food and that’s when I ended up joining an armed group.

Claude Jibidar: 00:44 If an end is brought to the conflict, I’ll be ready to go back to DRC in a few years’ time. Not to be distributing food, but to be buying food from the DRC.

Claudia Edelman: 01:05 This is the Global GoalsCast, the podcast that shows how we can change the world

Edie Lush: 01:11 In this episode – famine and how to end it. 100 million women, men and children are going to bed tonight dangerously underfed, but the solution isn’t just delivering food, it’s making peace.

Claudia Edelman: 01:25 This podcast is all about making progress and celebrating champions, but we also shine a light on issues that might either derail the progress or on connections that are harder to see. In a moment, we will hear about the connection between conflict and extreme hunger and the new approach by humanitarian agencies.

Edie Lush: 01:46 But first, this word about our sponsors.

Michelle: 01:51 This episode is sponsored by Mastercard. Stay with us later for an interview with Tara Nathan, Executive Vice President of humanitarian development at Mastercard, who will tell us about the digital aid network Mastercard is helping to build and our thanks to CBS New Digital and to Harmon, the official sound of Global GoalsCast.

Edie Lush: 02:18 Welcome back to the Global GoalsCast. I am Edie Lush.

Claudia Edelman: 02:21 And I am Claudia Romo Edelman. Edie, we talk a lot about how sustainable development goals are connected and interconnected. How one goal, say, educating girls helps achieve other goals like ending extreme poverty.

Edie Lush: 02:38 Exactamente, Claudia, and in this episode we’re going to explore a vivid and brutal example of this connection. Goal number two is “Zero Hunger” by 2030. Goal 16 calls for “Peace and Strong Institutions”. What humanitarian agencies say is that we will never achieve zero hunger without major strides towards resolving conflicts.

Claudia Edelman: 03:01 Let us share some basic facts. The World Food Program says that about 113 million people are suffering acute hunger in 53 countries. These are people at risk of starvation in places like Yemen, Afghanistan and parts of Africa.

Edie Lush: 03:20 The problem in the majority of these severe situations is not a lack of food, it’s war and conflict that prevents the growing of food or it’s delivery

Claudia Edelman: 03:29 Or both.

Edie Lush: 03:30 Right? Exactly. So the lasting solution isn’t dropping burlap bags of food from cargo planes. It’s healing the conflicts.

Claudia Edelman: 03:37 Correct. And the World Food Program says that one of the most severe examples of this challenge is the Democratic Republic of Congo, the second largest country in Africa, which is what you explore with them. And the Democratic Republic of Congo, Edie, as you know, holds a very special place in my heart. It was the first ever campaign I launched

Edie Lush: 04:01 And we are going to talk about that at the end of the show. So you, the dear listener, have to hang on for that. So the World Food Program says 13 million people suffer acute hunger in the Democratic Republic of Congo and millions more are at risk. The country has been torn apart by violence and millions of people have been displaced from their land. So in this very fertile country, they can’t grow enough food for themselves and it is often very hard to get food to them. To understand the situation, I spoke with three people in the DRC. The first was Claude Jibidar who directs the efforts of the World Food Program in the DRC. And to help tell the story, he introduced me to two local colleagues. One is Rosette Kasereka, a farmer who had been driven from her land. And the other is a young man we call Zachary, a former child soldier. We’ll hear more from them through a World Food Programme translator. I’ll tell you more about him later.

Claudia Edelman: 05:00 Claude Jibidar has been with the World Food Program for 25 years. As a fact, World Food Programme, WFP, Edie, what do you say? We actually start a lexicon in this podcast and we started introducing jargons and abbreviations that people should know about. So Claude has been with the World Food Programme, WFP, for 25 years.

Edie Lush: 05:22 Okay. I will allow that jargon.

Claudia Edelman: 05:23 He worked in the DRC in his younger days and then return in 2016 after a tour in Afghanistan as conditions in the DRC were worsening.

Claude Jibidar: 05:36 The DRC is part of my daily concerns, worries. It’s what keeps me awake at night because DRC is one of those countries. Where everything should be in place for people to have more than enough to eat.

Rosette: 06:00 (Native language) The farming, we do is in a very difficult context because since 1994, the war has been um, making access difficult to our farms.

Claude Jibidar: 06:13 If people in the DRC cannot plant because they are uprooted because they are driven away from the field they don’t have what they need to feed themselves every day, they don’t have what it needs to take a sick child to health center or take a child to school. That’s the bottom line. If people don’t cultivate in DRC they don’t eat. The one important factor, if I was to pin only one in the DRC, I would say conflict. And what it means is that a family, a woman, her children, the husband in the middle of the night anytime suddenly they have to run and that run and leave everything behind.

Rosette: 07:08 (Native language) It was one of the groups called, CNDP that attacked the regular army. It was heated up badly that the army had to flee. And in that period there were many people that lost their lives. And in that period we had to run away. We had to flee from that (native language) and at that time we fled with my four children and with my husband and uh, my mother.

Claude Jibidar: 07:42 So Rosette is one of those extraordinary women in the DRC. You cannot imagine what they go through.

Rosette: 07:55 (Native language) And so when you talk about when there’s war, everything is destroyed. No school for the children and no food. We all slept, at one little room and food was very difficult to find.

Edie Lush: 08:12 It would be simple, or perhaps I should say, simplistic to think of all of this as good farmers who driven from their land by evil soldiers. Claude explained to me that often is not the soldiers themselves were caught up in the cycle of hunger and conflict. The perpetrators are victims, too.

Claude Jibidar: 08:30 In many instances you are talking of a handful of young guys from a village trying to survive. And what do they do to survive? They try to have access to resources either by taking it from whoever may provide them something: a bag of maize, a cow, a goat from the villages simply because those young people are armed. In other circumstances, maybe much better organized groups, some of them manipulated, some of them even set up to access and control resources and they get something out of it…so it’s all about survival.

Zachary: 09:21 (Native language) I had to stop school suddenly because of the conflict of war that had just started. My parents were being disturbed when they were going to farm and that led to me stopping school.

Edie Lush: 09:41 We call him Zachary. The World Food Program asked us to withhold his real name to protect him from reprisals by the armed group that he used to run with. He was 13 when he joined the militia.

Zachary: 09:56 (Native language) Life was very difficult surviving, getting food and I started having ideas and that’s when I ended up joining an armed the group.

Claude Jibidar: 10:08 You realize that uh, they did go through some terrible times. These were people who are trying to survive

Zachary: 10:19 (Native language) Once I joined the armed group, life was even more difficult than I had thought before, because it was very, very, very difficult to eat and once we would fight every time and not eat anything. And when you left as a group to go out somewhere to fight, you’d leave with a number of ten, and you come back three people and there was even no medicine – we just lived like that.

Claude Jibidar: 10:53 Surviving sometimes means being on the side of those who hold the guns rather than being the victims of those people. Survival is also about, you know, making sure that you can have access to those resources yourself.

Zachary: 11:09 (Native language) Our food we used to get it from the farmers, we would go in people’s farm and take things. We would do looting most of the times and I would stop cars on the road, take what we want, also some money. (Native language) Yeah that’s how we got our food.

Claude Jibidar: 11:30 And that goes on until a time when somebody can come and give you alternatives, give you options. And Zachary, like many others– they had this opportunity to be given options. And um, through those options, you know, change the way they were looking at the future. These are people, if you talk to them, you’ll see that what they want is they want education, they want security, they want to grow up and have their own families care for their own families. I mean things that are as simple you and I, we, we enjoy every day just a bit of peace.

Claude Jibidar: 12:17 There is more than enough to feed everybody. I don’t think that is the point. The point is about a number of people in a number of specific countries and contexts, face challenges that are beyond what they can manage themselves. And that is where I believe, you know, agencies like the World Food Program and all the others really have to come together.

Claudia Edelman: 12:54 In 2016 the world’s humanitarian organizations came together at a very important meeting in Istanbul. I happened to be there and they agreed on this new approach of not just delivering food, but also solving the problems that caused hunger in the first place. Istanbul was massive, a crucial meeting of the minds where leaders agreed for the first time to work on prevention and also work on issues at the same time. Everything is interconnected.

Edie Lush: 13:27 There’s a new phrase for this thinking humanitarian agencies should move from delivering aid to ending need, and I asked Claude about that. So it sounds like peacemaking is the ultimate skill you need to make sure that people can just eat. How do you address that? Do you and your colleagues have the skills you need? Do you fund people who do, how does it work?

Claude Jibidar: 13:52 We call on everybody. We call on people like you. I call on first and foremost on the government to play its role to ensure that its people can have some stability. We try from our own side to stabilize communities. Let me give you an example. One of the conflicts currently hitting that Tanganyika province of the DRC is a conflict between what we call the Tua, which are the peak big community against the Bamtu community. These two communities have been at war fighting each other, killing each other, creating displacement. So what we, WFP, have tried to do jointly with FAO, with other NGO partners like “Search for Common Ground” is to bring these people together and have them work side by side, have them see what advantages they can obtain from this collaboration, what it brings them as opposed to, you know, the conflict that they were pursuing.

Claude Jibidar: 15:19 And if you go to a place called Caballo, you have today through a resilience project being implemented by the World Food Program, FAO, and “Search for Common Ground”, with the support of a number of donors, you have these communities working side by side, they reap the benefit of pooling their resources, their capacities together. This is something that I wish I could scale up and multiplied by 100 because you know what hunger drinks about conflict and conflict generates hunger so it’s a vicious circle. It has to be broken.

Claudia Edelman: 15:59 The scale of the challenge is quite large. With families living in terrible conditions and unable to farm or feed themselves.

Claude Jibidar: 16:09 The new numbers was more than 4.5 million people displaced internally. Being internally displaced in Kasai meant that people had left their homes and for a year, for some of them, people have been surviving in the bush, and when I say surviving in the bush, it means feeding off whatever you could find in the Bush sleeping, wherever you could sleep.

Edie Lush: 16:40 We rejoin rosette that after she and her family returned home, unlike so many who lose children to hunger or illness – or even snakebites – while displaced from their homes, she has all of her family intact.

Rosette: 16:56 (Native language) When we got back, it was very difficult depending on assistance. Everybody was trying to farm in their own different ways. Seeds were difficult to find before that. Until when WFP, the World Food Program and Food and Agriculture Organization came in to support us with the trainings on how to farm and, uh, increase our produce and also provided us seeds and tools.

Edie Lush: 17:29 And so now what are you growing Rosette?

Rosette: 17:34 (Native language) We farm maize, beans, cabbages, eggplants. (Native language) I am able to plant for selling and also eating some in the family and also I’m managing to, to have some money selling my products to pay for basic services and most importantly, uh, the children’s school fees.

Claude Jibidar: 18:05 WFP, FAO helps them, provide them with a bit of food, provide them with a bit of seeds, a few tools and two months after you see Rosette and you see other women chanting, dancing because they have had their first harvest. And that’s one of the stories. But it is the story of I would say all the women that we are meeting in the DRC and that’s why for us it is so important to be behind these people, to support them, to listen to what they want, what they need and do our utmost to be able to bring them because what we are bringing is very little and what they’re fighting, what they’re struggling is so much more, so much more than what we can bring them. That’s why I think the story, the history of the DRC, you know, if this country becomes what it is meant to be, I think it will be thanks to the women of the DRC.

Claudia Edelman: 19:12 As she was rebuilding her own life, Rosette was able to take on a leadership role in a farmer’s group that is part of their resilience building encouraged by the World Food Program. It is called purchase for progress and it helps farmers build their markets and income.

Rosette: 19:32 (Native language) I’m the president of the 11 farmer’s organization. It is very important as the project came because here in our area it’s very difficult for women to be in positions to make decisions. It was always the manner that makes the decision even in the homes, but now I’m part of the team. I am now making, able to make, decision and it makes me very happy. Through this project I have also learnt personally that uh, farming is a, is a very good business. It’s a business because it has enabled me to learn the value of what I produce. I know that food is very important and there is a portion I can keep, I can store for eating and a portion I can sell and it has increased my income in my house. Here, there’s a common saying that says union is power. And through this project, purchase for progress, we have become one. It has brought us together in this conflict situation that we lived before. If I’m in a difficult situation, I know I can go to another person within the group because now we know each other better. I found where I belong. I know that with farming I plan my life better. I know what I produce, my income is and that’s how I live. (Native language)

Claudia Edelman: 21:12 When we come back, we will hear why Zachary decided to lay down his guns and give up being a child soldier. At first, another cool woman from mastercard, Tara Nathan, executive vice president in charge of humanitarian development. Claudi. We met her in Davos, remember indeed, and I spoke to her about the digital aid network. Mastercard is helping to build.

Tara Nathan: 21:37 We see that while philanthropy has a critical role to play, we believe that our technology and our capabilities and leveraging our knowledge of not just digital technologies but of building payments, ecosystems can really have transformational impact. Specific examples, we partnered with a number of different NGOs, the likes of Mercy Corps and Save the Children, World Vision, et cetera, to build something called the Mastercard Aid Network.

Tara Nathan: 22:08 What the Mastercard Aid Network was, was a digital wallet that enabled a beneficiary who was sitting in a remote place, whether in Yemen, in a disconnected environment with no mobile phone coverage, with no power, no electricity, the ability to receive digitally their food and their humanitarians benefits. What this does is because they’re receiving it digitally, it gives that beneficiary the ability to redeem at a local marketplace just like you or I would. It enables them to redeem their benefits for fresh fruits and fresh vegetables and to actually make healthy choices for their families. The other side of that really is what it does for the organizations that service and that serve these beneficiaries, like the NGOs who we partner with.

Tara Nathan: 23:00 And that is it gives them a more cost effective way, a more auditable, a more transparent way to provide these benefits. We look at our digital infrastructure as sort of digital roads that that give access to a number of different services and we have another solution that we are deploying currently across Uganda and Kenya and in India as well, which is giving, for example, smallholder farmers access to Agri buyers. So a small holder farmer typically in a rural environment would be limited as to where they could sell their goods. So their household income will be limited by who comes to their, literally who comes to their farm gate and purchases what their wares are.

Tara Nathan: 23:46 By digitally enabling these smallholder farmers, we give them access to large scale Agri buyers who can now pay much more for their produce or for their beans or for their crops. And eliminate some of the middle men who sit and extract rents in these value chains. We now either eliminate some of that and or create transparency.

Claudia Edelman: 24:10 More from Mastercard and Tara Nathan later. Now let’s return to our conversation about how conflict and famine are tied together. And no one illustrates that better than Zachary who talks about the terror of being a child soldier.

Zachary: 24:32 (Native language) I decided to leave during one mission whereby we, we went to fight and uh, we went 15 and came back seven people. Three of my friends got killed that day and I thought to myself, why should I continue living like this? And uh, if there’s no other life than this, that was when I decided to go and leave the group.

Edie Lush: 25:02 He would have been killed if he’d asked to leave. He fled in the night, made it home, but then had to go into hiding from the very militias that he’d run away from

Claudia Edelman: 25:12 And here is where the coordinated humanitarian efforts to end need gave Zachary a new start. He joined the training program run by a local NGO, focused on rehabilitating former child soldiers. The WFP made sure he was fed while he was learning how to start a new business.

Rosette: 25:37 (Native language) I got registered for the program and they took us to a place where they would train us and they ask us what we wanted to learn. As me, I was passionate about computer science and uh, that’s what I chose to be trained in. (Native language) The place where the educational center was located, was a two hours of walk from where I lived, from my village, my home. I had to wake up very early in the morning around five o’clock to be there at eight o’clock. It was very difficult in the beginning. I was motivated and encouraged through the food that uh World Food Programme was giving out to the former ex soldiers participating, taking part in that training that motivated me, encouraged me to continue and finish the training.

Edie Lush: 26:36 After the training and with the ‘exit kit’- that’s a computer and a printer provided by the program, he was able to open his own business providing printing, scanning, word processing and more.

Zachary: 26:50 (Native language) I opened the place and I make some money out of it. (Native language) With a place I’ve opened I’m also providing training, showing some youth that are interested in computers and computer sciences. And also through that I’ve been able to sensitize former armed group people that were still in there. I talked to them and sensitized them out of it to get out.

Claudia Edelman: 27:21 He also used his experience to discourage other young people thinking of joining an armed group. He had succeeded with seven people who were about to join the militia.

Zachary: 27:34 (Native language) I see myself as a peacemaker and the more knowledge I get, the more I’ll have the ability to help out as many people as possible. (Native language) I dream of a place where we are able to do live free of children going into armed groups like the way I did.

Claudia Edelman: 28:03 Don’t just deliver aid, end the need. We can really see that in the stories of Rosette and Zachary. She has learned to manage and grow an agribusiness and he’s a budding tech entrepreneur.

Edie Lush: 28:15 And a big part of his business Claudia is actually helping people download movies and music. He’s like a kind of one man Netflix, but that’s to say nothing of his new found role working to keep young men and women like him out of the armed militias. I was really moved by my conversation with Zachary and also Claude Jibidar. He and the other humanitarian leaders know what needs to be done in the DRC. If peace and stability can be created, the experts say the DRC has the abundance to produce enough food to feed everyone in Africa, with food left over.

Claude Jibidar: 28:53 I always say as a joke that in the DRC, when you take your tomato, you wash your tomato, you throw the water. You come a month after you have a tomato plant, but it is true. It’s not a joke. I recall back in the 90s we tried to rehabilitate some rail tracks that had not been used for nine months. There were trees, trees had grown in the middle of the tracks. I mean that’s what DRC is about. The potential is there. Everything grows and grows very fast. If an end is brought to the conflict, I would be ready to go back to DRC in a few years’ time. Not to be distributing food, but to be buying food from the DRC and taking that food in a number of other places where they’re hit by drought and by, you know, like Mozambique at the moment with, you know, these floodings because the DRC can feed huge numbers of people. FAO Talks of 2 billion people. This country hosting currently 90 million people, of which at least 20 millions are food insecure. That country could produce enough to feed 2 billion.

Edie Lush: 30:19 Claudia, I don’t know if you’re aware, but we had some behind the scenes drama making this episode. As you can see, conflict is a daily issue in life in the DRC, so it turned out to be a daily issue in recording. Benjamin Anguandia, who was the WFP staff person who also was a translator, was supposed to go interview Rosette and Zachary with me on the other end of the phone and I got a message from his office saying he’s had to turn around because there’s armed militias on the road between his office and where Zachary and Rosette live, so the exact same issues that affect those folks in our episode affected our podcast.

Claudia Edelman: 31:02 I started by telling you Edie when I was working for the UN refugee agency in 2008 no one, I mean no one spoke about the DRC. The focus was in Darfur and in other areas of Africa and the world. But I went out and started measuring and checking media space given to the DRC, how much media was covering it and literally was nothing, was one of the countries that had very little funding and there were 5,000 people killed every day and the number of child soldiers that were in DRC wars, were humongous. So it was almost like the bloodiest place in the world that no one saw. I went out and started knocking doors of different people to try to get some attention to the DRC. So the first door I knocked was Universal Studios. I said, I need you guys to come to the DRC and film something so that we can bring this issue to the table.

Claudia Edelman: 32:00 You can only imagine their faces. When I said that, and they were like, what’s the DRC? But beyond that they committed to actually doing that. And we went afterwards to try to get a soundtrack so that we could do something. So the Rolling Stones donated “Gimme Shelter” and then we went out to Ben Affleck to see whether he could actually direct this video to try to incentivize people to give shelter, to actually understand the DRC was a tragedy that needed to be seen and needed to be corrected. Knowing how much potential DRC had. You can only imagine the amount of times that we tried to take off with the little planes full of equipment trying to land in the DRC was not possible. So I thank everybody for having made that effort and it brought the DRC from the invisible to the visible to some degree.

Edie Lush: 32:49 What did you learn from that?

Claudia Edelman: 32:51 DRC is a place that illustrates that you have to work together on so many fronts at the same time and you know like it’s not that you can work towards education and forget about gender and you have to work on everything at the same time and it’s such a potential land. People understanding leaders, understanding that in order to really accomplish ambitious goals, you have to work on many things at the same time and pretty much work on prevention, but Edie, pretty much what the sustainable development goals or SDGs are. There we go, lexicon number five,

Edie Lush: 33:27 Another bit of jargon.

Claudia Edelman: 33:27 There we go.

Edie Lush: 33:28 Can I, before we move on, I just want to say the next time you go to knock on the door of Ben Affleck and the Rolling Stones I could come to, I can also knock on doors.

Claudia Edelman: 33:38 But Edie, these stories, the stories that we’re telling today, they illustrate hope and how champions are really making a difference and how it is possible to get to that path. Particularly now that we have by far more understanding and a framework of action.

Edie Lush: 33:55 And I think that those stories that we told today, the stories of Zachary and Rosette, they are the champions just as much as Claude is. Those are the folks who are helping to rebuild their country even as it’s still under so much threat.

Claudia Edelman: 34:10 Edie, not to brag, but on Saturday I was awarded the Ellis Island Medal of honor. I hope that you saw that and there were like 100 people that were honored and the one that really got the attention of everybody, because there were only a few people speaking, was David Beasley. He’s like the executive director of the World Food Program. And when he was talking I could just see that people got it, but also had hope and they believed on it and actually they could understand it and see because food is something that is concrete and tangible and gets people together. David was also very good in praising the US for stepping up and while in many other areas, you know, like there’s, there’s some questions about whether the US is following, you know, global affairs here. He reassured that this country was actually stepping up and stepping forward. So that was a massive event.

Edie Lush: 35:04 And I would like to praise you for stepping up in such an amazing dress. Not that it’s all about the dress.

Claudia Edelman: 35:11 And the dress is a beautiful bridge to the facts because it’s not only looking great but also looking smart. So here are the three facts for today.

Edie Lush: 35:21 So fact number one, issues of food and nutrition are not only related to agriculture or trade. Conflict plays a huge role and as a fact, conflict is the most serious cause of acute hunger affecting 75 million people and getting worse.

Claudia Edelman: 35:37 Fact number two, one third of the world’s food is wasted and one person in 10 around the world is under nourished.

Edie Lush: 35:45 Fact number three, 29 million people face acute hunger because of climate change. Most of these people are in Africa but also in Pakistan and Haiti. This is likely to increase and spread in the years to come. And in several countries including the DRC conflict and climate change are reinforcing each other. You can learn more at our website, the links to the latest reports on hunger are there to learn more. You owe to yourself and the future. As Claude Jibidar explained,

Claude Jibidar: 36:18 Maybe think the worLd differently, whatever big the world is whatever happens somewhere will affect all of us. If other people are suffering, there will reach out to where they can have safety, where they can have wealth, where they can survive. So let’s help each other because otherwise we will all be the same problem at some point.

Edie Lush: 36:49 Okay, Claudia, we’ve also got some actions. Action number one, Claudia, take out your phone and if you haven’t already, download, Share the Meal, the World Food Programme, oop, the WFPs app. It lets you pick where you want your help to go. So swipe, till you find the one you want to click on and then you can feel good. I did this yesterday and I was tidying up the script and I chose the DRC because the money I give goes directly to the school feeding programs like the one Rosette sells her crops too.

Claudia Edelman: 37:20 So I’m going to correspond to your action with another phone action. Edie, take out your phone, now, download Olio. You got it?

Edie Lush: 37:31 I got it. I did it.

Claudia Edelman: 37:32 There you go. So snap a picture of something you don’t want in your fridge or cupboard and within a day someone in your neighborhood will come and pick it up. How smart is that? Combat food waste and eliminate hunger locally. That’s awesome. Edie did this all last weekend, didn’t you?

Edie Lush: 37:52 I did and I even got rid of my cranberry sauce that I thought no one but Americans would want and why would they want it in London in May and somebody did. That’s what’s amazing.

Claudia Edelman: 38:03 Download Olio guys.

Edie Lush: 38:05 Action number three, support partners of Global GoalsCast- Slow Food, check out their food for change campaign, which explains how our food choices have a direct impact on the future of the planet.

Claudia Edelman: 38:17 And also support Gastromotiva from our friends in Brazil that feed people in underprivileged areas, reduce food waste by cooking it and also empower youth to be more aware and more conscious about their food.

Edie Lush: 38:34 And here’s the Global GoalsCast lexicon.

Claudia Edelman: 38:40 WFP- World Food Programme

Edie Lush: 38:41 DRC- Democratic Republic of Congo

Claudia Edelman: 38:44 SDGs- sustainable development goals

Edie Lush: 38:49 and NGOs. I don’t even know what they are!

Claudia Edelman: 38:50 Ah you got it! Non-governmental organisations

Edie Lush: 38:50 Non-governmental organisations.

Edie Lush: 38:58 Now Let’s hear more from Tara Nathan, executive vice president at Mastercard. Earlier, she introduced us to the way Mastercard is helping people in remote locations to receive aid digitally and how that in turn is promoting better nutrition. Is all of this being done via the mobile phone?

Tara Nathan: 39:18 We find that in a majority of the context where people living at the base in marginalized communities exist, frankly, have no connectivity or have very intermittent connectivity. And so when those types of contexts, what we’re really trying to figure out, and we’re doing a lot of innovation around is how we can create offline solutions. So offline solutions that are facilitated via what looks like a regular Mastercard that you carry around in your wallet. But now what we do is we leverage that chip card to serve, if you will, as an entry level mobile phone almost because it can store data, it can store biometric capabilities. Wouldn’t it be great if someone can show up at a point of interface at a point of sale and just via their biometrics just via who they are, capture their face and receive the goods and services to which they are entitled.

Edie Lush: 40:12 So what do you think the biggest challenges are with the programs that you get involved with that aim to serve marginalized individuals and communities?

Tara Nathan: 40:25 I think the biggest challenge that we face, frankly, is that the various actors across the humanitarian and development sectors still fail to act in concert. So what does that mean? We have very siloed approaches, both from a solution perspective, from a technology perspective, from a go to market perspective. And what that results in is, high cost for donors, it results in unprofitability for the private sector. It results in substandard solutions for the beneficiaries we seek to serve. So that is the main gap. We’ve made an effort to this end in conjunction with about 35 other partners we launched in Davos actually two years ago. The Smart Communities Coalition and the Smart Communities Coalition is really aimed at doing that. Smart Communities Coalition really aims to say, how do we create the digital roads, the power roads, the connectivity roads that create the infrastructure that can provide those longterm solutions. I think these are the types of ecosystem or joint approaches that are really going to be critical if we are going to solve, you know, what has been repeatedly called out is the several trillion dollar funding gap to achieve the the sustainable development goals.

Edie Lush: 41:56 That was Tara Nathan from Mastercard.

Claudia Edelman: 41:59 And that was a wrap. That’s it for this episode of Global GoalsCast. Thank you so much to all our guests. You can find out more on our website, Please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and follow us on social media at Global GoalsCasts. Goodbye, Edie Lush.

Edie Lush: 42:18 Goodbye, Claudia

Claudia Edelman: 42:23 Bye!

Michelle: 42:23 Music in this episode was by Neil Hale, Andrew Phillips, Angelica Garcia, Simon James, Katie Crone and Aasgeesg Paliwal. Thanks to our translator, Benjamin Aguandia. This episode was made possible with the support of Mastercard, CBS News Digital, and Harmon, the official sound of Global GoalsCast.

How to Make a Healthier World


No child should die of measles in 2019. Or any disease that can be prevented by Vaccine or basic preventive care. That’s the view of Sue Desmond-Hellmann, CEOof the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, speaking to Edie lush on this Episode. Yet children still do die needlessly. Which shows the world still has work to do to continue to grow healthier. Progress over the last decades has been remarkable. The near abolition of measles is just one example. A good part of the credit goes to two organizations, The Global Fund and Gavi, the vaccine alliance. Their work has helped people live longer healthier lives, particularly in the poorest places on earth. But now governments must decide whether to replenish their funds. Sue Desmond Hellman argues that it is the best investment in the future.

Featured guests

Sue Desmond-Hellmann

Sue Desmond-Hellmann is a physician, scientist and philanthropist and has been a pioneer for healthcare for more than 30 years. After moving to Uganda in 1989 to work on HIV/AIDS and cancer she has since driven major developments toward the eradication of disease, poverty and inequality. She completed her clinical training at the University of California at San Francisco (UCSF) in the 1980s and later became the first female chancellor for the university. Today she is the CEO of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. The foundation works to ensure more children and young people survive and thrive, combat infectious diseases that hit the poorest hardest and empower people – especially women and girls – to transform their lives. Sue is the recipient of numerous honors and awards. She was listed among Fortune magazine’s “top 50 most powerful women in business” for seven years and, in 2010, was inducted into the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and elected to the Institute of Medicine. She was also listed as one of the world’s seven most “powerful innovators” by Forbes Magazine in 2009.

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of


Susan D-H: 00:02  No one should die of measles in 2019 that should never happen. A Child should never die for want of an affordable vaccine.

Susan D-H: 00:11 It is not an exaggeration to say a health crisis anywhere is a health crisis everywhere

Susan D-H: 00:17 We are dead serious about causing an impact

Edie Lush: 00:31  This is the Global GoalsCast the podcast that shows how we can change the world. In this bonus episode, we’re going to talk about two organizations that have changed the world by helping people live longer, healthier lives, particularly in the poorest places on earth. And Claudia, I know they’re important to you. They’re the Global Fund and Gavi

Susan D-H: 00:51  Two incredible organizations, very close to my heart, both of them. The question is whether we will step up the fight and help them achieve their incredible goals and missions. And that will depend on whether governments and philanthropies renew their funding. In a moment we will hear from our special guests, on why they should and why the world should step up the fight this year.

Edie Lush: 01:17 But first, let’s thank the sponsors, make it possible to bring you this episode and every episode of the Global GoalsCast

Claudia R E:  01:29  Our thanks to Mastercard for sponsoring Season Two of the Global GoalsCast, and to CBS News Digital for being our media partner, and, to Harman Kardon the official sound of the Global GoalsCast.

Edie Lush:  01:49  Welcome back. I’m Edie Lush

Claudia R E: 01:51  And I’m Claudia Romo Edelman. You know, Edie, we love to talk about what’s going right in the world, the champions that are making a difference. And sometimes it is not so easy. Progress isn’t that clear, but in one very important field, the progress is not just clear its amazing.

Edie Lush: 02:10 That’s right. We can debate about whether the world is a better place than it was like 20 years ago. But one area of progress is beyond dispute. The world is a much healthier place. The World Health Organization says that globally people are living longer and healthier lives.

Claudia R E: 02:27  And part of the reason is the work of two incredible organizations. One of them is Gavi, the vaccine alliance, and we featured Seth Berkley, its CEO in our season one on the episode of trust. The other organization is the Global Fund to fight AIDS, tuberculosis, and malaria. These are unique organizations that draw their support from governments, private philanthropy and corporate contributions.

Claudia R E:02:54  They changed the game from calling on the M-game to the B game. Organizations used to gather millions of dollars and the Global Fund and Gavi started calling it the billion dollar game. And both organizations have launched major drives to guarantee funding over the next few years. They call it replenishment as in replenishing the money that they need to continue their work into the 2020s to move closer to fulfilling the Sustainable Development Goal number three, health and wellbeing for all.

Edie Lush: 03:30 Claudia, for a closer look at this, I sought out the CEO of the bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, which as you know has been one of the strongest supporters of Gavi and the Global Fund. I caught up with her in Davos.

Edie Lush:  03:44 Thank you very much for being with us. I want you to tell me in your own words what you think the impact of those funds has been so far.

Susan D-H: 03:51 It literally is impossible for me to overstate how much global fund and Gavi have contributed to everything we celebrate in global health. I’ll give you just one fact. Since 1990 under five mortality has been cut in half. It is not at all an overstatement to say, if not for the Global Fund for Aids, TB, and malaria and Gavi for vaccines for the poorest children of the world, the world would have never seen that kind of gains.

Edie Lush: 04:23  So it’s up for replenishment in the next 18 months and we need governments and the private sector to recommit. What’s your message to them?

Susan D-H:  04:31   This is a great buy. My message is – if you want a return on investment, if you’re a government, if you’re a philanthropist, if you’re somebody who cares about the world and your fellow humans, this is a great investment.

Susan D-H: 04:45 The return on investment is extraordinary. About 20 bucks for every one bucks spent. And one of the really fun things for a person like me working with Bill, Melinda and Warren is I work around people who are pretty smart business people and it’s not typical in the global development area you talk about return on investment. Global Fund and Gavi are great returns on investment.

Edie Lush:05:07  So tell me why that is. Why is it such a good return on investment?

Susan D-H:  05:10  Well, I think there’s two reasons that I want people to know about. Let’s start with Global Fund. One of the things that I think is so important to remember because it’s easy to forget the early days of the epidemic, HIV, AIDS, tuberculosis, and malaria remained some of the most important killers of human beings. When we see something like HIV aids controlled by antiretroviral therapy by modern medicine, and we don’t really see tuberculosis and malaria in the United States, we think of those as travelers’ diseases.

Susan D-H: 05:46 In fact, for most people in the world, particularly for people in the poorest areas of the world, these diseases still kill and they cause a lot of what we call morbidity. They cause a lot of suffering. So the Global Fund is really important because those are the diseases that the poorest people of the world struggle with. Gavi on the other hand is important because of the near miraculous benefit of vaccines. Bill and Melinda started the Gates Foundation in part because they recognize that children in poor areas would die of a vaccine preventable disease. Like no one should die of measles in 2019. That should never happen. So something that’s affordable and accessible and safe and effective, a child should never die for want of an affordable vaccine. And Gavi is really based on that premise.

Edie Lush: 06:45  The big developed countries have been among the biggest contributors to Gavi and the Global Fund, billions of dollars in the last two decades. The United Kingdom, United States, France. But now these countries are caught up in a wave of nationalism that makes winning their help for the rest of the world. More difficult. I asked suit, Desmond-Hellmann, how supporters of Gavi and the Global Fund would address this.

Susan D-H: 07:09 We’re very concerned about the current dialogue.We’re, we’re concerned not because we get into politics because we don’t, we don’t choose sides in politics, but we do believe very, very strongly in a global view for health. And these replenishments are really about a global view for health. And so no matter if you think, Gosh, I’m worried about the people in my neighborhood, I’m worried about the people in my community, my country, or if you have learned in school to think about Europe and Asia and Subsaharan Africa, I don’t actually care how you think about the world, your politics are your politics.

Susan D-H: 07:51 What I am very confident is that the entire world benefits from the funds that governments and philanthropists put against the Global Fund and Gavi, it’s money well spent. I’ll give you an example, 2015 the world got really scared about Ebola and what that taught us because of global travel and because in fact things like mosquitoes or bats or other agents that carry infectious diseases don’t know about our borders and don’t really care much about our borders because people move and the vectors, we call them – mosquitoes or bats or whoever’s carrying disease – they move across country lines. It is not an exaggeration to say a health crisis anywhere is a health crisis everywhere and so it’s actually just practical and important. Again, these are best buys so governments can get a great return on what ultimately is not only the health of the world, but the health of their citizens.

Edie Lush:  08:50  Because I was interviewing her during the World Economic Forum’s annual gathering, I asked Desmond Hellmann about the sharp criticism of the elites who gather at Davos and the claim that their efforts to help the world are really empty gestures intended to protect their own status.

Susan D-H:  09:08 I couldn’t disagree more. I think in philanthropy, just like private industry, just like government, just like the nongovernmental organizations, there are people with different values. There’s tactics and strategies and approaches that are either helpful and cause good outcomes, and then there’s some that fail. I think it is frankly silly to target any of those sectors and take one or two examples where people haven’t done a good job or where they, you disagree with their values and paint a picture broadly in one sector as if everybody signifies that one outlier or that one bad outcome. Here’s what I know. Before I came to Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, I was chancellor at University of California, San Francisco and tremendous philanthropists, help us drive scholarship for students, an entirely new campus at mission bay for Science. I grew to be so positive about the generosity of the donors that help create new children’s Hospital at UCF, so I got really passionate about philanthropists and the good they could do in a public university in California after the big recession. Then I come to Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and I can tell you that we are absolutely not perfect. We’ve made mistakes, we’ll make mistakes, but we are dead serious about causing an impact

Edie Lush: 10:41  That was Sue Desmond-Hellmann at the bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, a really impressive woman. Claudia, tell me about this replenishment of the fund compared to the last one.

Claudia R E: 10:52 As you know, Edie, I was working for the Global Fund for four years and I was the head of marketing and I had the opportunity to be part of two replenishments. As a fact, one of the first replenishments of the Global Fund on the global scale. And every year you step up the funding that is needed. But this year it is 14 billion dollars. I just don’t know whether you realize how much is that money at the end of the day, you know, like again, organizations work on the M game and the global fund goes into the B game and changes the model of the way in which we deal with issues. So before the Global Fund existed, every organization was fighting small old pieces on their own. And the Global Fund came as a new unique model as our war chest, putting everybody to say like, look, instead of actually everyone trying to defeat such a monster like aids, tuberculosis, and malaria, let’s put all the efforts, all the monies, everything in a coordinated manner and $14 billion this year is just an incredible effort. I think that the past two replenishments have been around 10 or $12 billion and it sounds easy to have just like a step up of $2 billion but that’s massive. And I think that what the Global Fund has demonstrated is that they save incredible amount of lives, that it is an very, very flexible organization that it was able to reform itself to be really, really increasingly effective. We’re very close to finding vaccines, for example, for aids and things that will change completely the spectrum of health overall. And without the global fund being totally replenished, Edie, the Sustainable Development Goals will not be able to be achieved as easily because they touched not only goal three but a number of others, the incredible progress that the world’s, so during the 80s taking 20% of the kids around the world that were vaccinated to 80% it’s a massive thing. But guess what?

Claudia R E: 12:57  Since the eighties that’s it. We are in plateau in 80% so we’re not able to move from 80% to 100% or actually to say not only we have a couple of vaccines to kids, but a number of vaccines so that you know, once and for all you get all the vaccinations that you get to as many people as possible in one

Edie Lush:  13:16  Its that last mile question isn’t it? And I think that health is the great success story of the global goals. The original Millennium Development Goals were very much about health. I don’t need to tell you that of course, but I’m just reminding myself. But a large measure, they were met and we’ve also meet, seen a lot of people alongside these great strides that Gavi, the global fund has been making. Also we’ve seen development. So we’ve seen more people move into the middle class around the world. They eat better, they get better medical care. But the reason that we talk about health so much and the reason that it’s such an important thing to focus on SDG three is because it’s so interrelated with the other goals, like improving incomes, educating everyone, reducing inequality.

Edie Lush: 14:03  I think the thing that I wonder about and I wonder what you think about this, that things have changed since those millennium development goals. Health was a real top priority and now it’s just one of 17. People like the Secretary General for really very real and important reason to think that curving climate change is the top priority. Now, of course among the arguments is that improvements in health won’t continue if those billions of people around the world are exposed to scorching heat, climate driven famines and dislocation caused by flooding and complex over water. So how do you keep health up there as important as the rest of the goals, especially when so much focus is on climate change.

Claudia R E: 14:41 I invite you to actually have a look at the global fund website and see the video of step up the fight. You will actually see that the curve is exponentially going down on the number of deaths of people and the amount of people in treatment on aids tuburculosis and malaria.

Claudia R E: 14:57  So it goes like (sound effect)

Edie Lush: 15:00 Just like that? With that sound effect?

Claudia R E: 15:00 And then we can come to a place like, (sound effect) and that’s it, 2030 boom end bye. But there’s a risk right now that if we don’t address that, then it’s going to be like, (sound effect) and it’s going to come back. So we don’t want to do that because all the progress that we have made has not only, you know, like signified an incredible number of lives, but also an incredible number of billions of dollars that could be lost.

Edie Lush:  15:25   I really love those sound effects. I mean I know it’s a serious subject, but I really love the sound of that because I just have to tell you. So I think we could get into that for three facts and actions. Now what do you think?

Claudia R E: 15:37 I think that’s right.

Edie Lush: 15:38  Okay, so number one, in 15 years, the global death toll of malaria has been cut in half. That’s from nearly 840,000 deaths in 2000 just under 440,000 deaths in 2015

Claudia R E: 15:55   Fact number two the maternal mortality ratio has declined by 30% since 2000. There’s still more to go.

Edie Lush: 16:02 And number three Claudia, you mentioned this just a minute ago, AIDS is the leading cause of death among young women, yet it is treatable. Every two minutes a teenager is infected by HIV, yet it is preventable. So let’s go to our three actions.

Claudia R E:  16:20  Action number one, find out in your country what’s happening to Global Fund. Lobby your government to do their part in the replenishment by raising your voice. Find out more at

Edie Lush: 16:34   Action number two, do something yourself. Support our partner Malaria no more by buying a bed net. You can find their website in a link in our show notes

Claudia R E:  16:45   Support our partner Product Red by buying one of the red products. Very cool. All of them. Every dollar you spend helps save a life.

Edie Lush: 16:59   And that’s the Global GoalsCast for this episode. Don’t forget to subscribe on apple or wherever. Get your podcasts and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. I’m Edie Lush.

Claudia R E:   17:13    I’m Claudia Romo Edelman. Thank you so much for listening.

Edie Lush: 17:16  Adios

Michelle C:   17:21  Music in this episode was by Andrew Philips, Angelica Garcia, Simon James, Katie Crone, Amy Edwards, Ashish Pillowall ,Alex Vallejo and Ellis. This episode was made possible thanks to the support of Mastercard, CBS News digital, and Harman, the official sound of global goals cast. This episode would not have been possible without Keith Reynolds, founder and president of Spoke Media who lent us his ear.


AI for the Sustainable Development Goals


How will Artificial Intelligence shape the next decade? Will this revolution be a positive force, spurring global growth and improving lives around the world? Or will the benefits flow heavily to those who already have the knowledge and wealth to use these revolutionary technologies?

Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman pursue those questions around the world. They speak to an author of a major United Nation’s report who says that AI will spur global growth more than earlier innovations like steam power. But who benefits from that growth will be shaped by how well Africa, Latin America and the rest of the Global South absorb and adapt these powerful tools and manage the inevitable disruptions to work. “In some ways, the Luddites weren’t wrong,” says the co author of the report, Michael Chui of McKinsey.  In other words, AI can either help achieve the Sustainable Development Goals or move them out of reach.

To understand what is already being done in Africa, Edie and Claudia speak with two African experts, Nathalie Munyampenda of the Next Einstein Foundation and Abdigani Diriye from IBM Research in Nairobi. They stress the importance of Africans developing African solutions to solve Africa’s challenges. “The conversation really needs to be around how we can effectively use artificial intelligence to improve the human condition and how we can prepare ourselves and the next generation,” says Diriye.

Two special guests cite one basic challenge: inclusion. Christopher Fabian, innovation expert from UNICEF, and Rosemary Leith of the World Wide Web Foundation, note that half the world is not yet on the internet. Those who are not connected do not and will not have access to the powers of AI.

This episode also features a conversation about the gig economy with Jennifer Rademaker, Executive Vice President of Global Customer Delivery at Mastercard, the sponsor of Season Two of the Global GoalsCast.

Special Guest Julia Streets, a comic in London and host of the DiverCity Podcast, recommends facts and actions for this episode. You will also hear from Ann Cairns, the executive vice chair of MasterCard, sponsor of this season of The Global GoalsCast. A research engineer, she was the first woman to work an oil rig in the North Sea.

Edie and Claudia also try their hand at comedy, which is why they are sticking to podcasting.

Featured guests

Abdigani Diriye

Abdigani Diriye is from Somalia and did his schooling in the UK where his curiosity led him to the sciences. Currently, as Research Manager with IBMResearch Africa, Abdigani’s team is developing new approaches to securely mine, model and score individuals who are applying for a loan  identifying the right amount of credit and appropriate products. Last year, they developed a machine learning approach that leverages new data sources (mobile phone behavior) to evaluate the financial profile and credit score of hundreds of millions of people in Africa. This technology was deployed in East Africa and now is being used to credit score millions of people so they can access financial services through their phone. He is also currently working on conversational agents and deep learning techniques to personalize content relevant to people’s context. He is a Fellow with the Next Einstein Forum and believes science, technology, mathematics and engineering are fundamental to addressing the challenges facing Africa.

Michael Chui

Dr. Michael Chui is a partner at the McKinsey Global Institute (MGI), McKinsey’s business and economics research arm. He leads research on the impact of disruptive technologies and innovation on business, the economy, and society. Michael has led McKinsey research in such areas as data & analytics, social & collaboration technologies, the Internet of Things, and artificial intelligence, robotics & automation. Michael is a frequent speaker at major global conferences, and his research has been cited in leading publications around the world. As a McKinsey consultant, Michael served clients in the high-tech, media, and telecom industries on strategy, innovation and product development, IT, sales and marketing, M&A, and organization. He is also a member of the board of Asia Society Northern California and the Churchill Club.

Nathalie Munyampenda

Nathalie Munyampenda is the NEF’s Managing Director. She ensures the smooth implementation of the NEF impact work plan and provides day to day leadership of the NEF team. Nathalie also manages donor relations and resource mobilization, and leads the NEF’s communications and public engagement efforts. Prior to joining the NEF, Nathalie worked in the Canadian public service and international social media consulting before working to build the Government of Rwanda’s central communication unit as coordinator in the Office of the Government Spokesperson. She holds a Bachelor’s degree in International Development and Globalization from the University of Ottawa and is currently completing a Master’s degree in Strategic Communications from Seton Hall University.

Rosemary Leith

Rosemary Leith is Founding Director of the World Wide Web Foundation.  She is a Non-Executive Director of YouGov plc, an international online Market Research and Data Analytics company, and also currently advises and invests in a number of technology businesses in Europe and North America including those operating in the Data Analytics, Internet of Things and Financial Technology arenas. She is a Trustee of the National Gallery (London) and a Fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Center for Internet & Society, most recently authoring an Executive Education Course for Board Chairs and Non-Executive Directors on CyberSecurity. She has been the Chair of the World Economic Forum Global Agenda Council on the Future of Internet Security and is a member of the Advisory Boards of Infinite Analytics (Boston and Mumbai), Glasswing Capital (Boston), a Member of Raspberry Pi Foundation (overseeing commercial operations of Raspberry Pi), Queen’s University School of Business, Canada, Wolfson College, Oxford and University of the Arts London. 

Chris Fabian

Christopher Fabian co-created and has co-lead UNICEF’s Innovation Unit in New York since 2007. Working with UNICEF’s 135 country offices, the Innovation Unit’s research and development priorities focus on near-term challenges in the world’s most difficult operating environments. The Unit also crafts strategic options for innovation on a three-to-five year horizon. The Unit’s accomplishments have garnered global recognition, notably: Top 50 Innovations of 2011 from Time Magazine, and, in 2012, gold and silver IDSA awards, and a Redhat prize for being one of the three top open source projects.  Christopher believes that technology is not the end-product of innovation, but a principal driver of new ways of thinking about development problems. The Unit’s commitment to open-source engagements, determination to learn from failure, and realization that local talent must be front-and-center in creating successful local solutions has positioned UNICEF as a global leader in innovation.

Jennifer Rademaker

Jennifer Rademaker is Executive Vice President, Global Customer Delivery for Mastercard. In this role, she is responsible for the end-to-end technical implementation of Mastercard’s products and services worldwide, including leading the Product Delivery, Market Delivery, Product Integration, Customer Implementation Support, and Technical Account Management teams in North America, Europe, Latin America, Middle East & Africa, and Asia Pacific. In her previous role, Jennifer was responsible for the Product Sales, Product Delivery and Technology Account Management teams in the United States and Canada.  Prior to joining the North American Market, she led the Core Products group for MasterCard Europe.

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of


Abdigani Diriye:  00:01 I think the conversation really needs to be around how we can effectively use artificial intelligence to increase the human condition and how we can prepare ourselves and the next generation.

Michael Chui:  00:16 Populations of software engineers, data scientists is often overly male and pale and so that population developing the systems can have blind spots in terms of the systems that they create.

Chris Fabian:   00:27 We can pull a school out of a satellite image, for example, in in Liberia where we can see through machine learning where schools are and that lets us understand where to send equipment, supplies, material and teachers in a way that we wouldn’t if we didn’t have that data.

Rosemary Leith:  00:40  Inclusion is in every single Sustainable Development Goal.

Edie Lush:  00:50 This is the Global GoalsCast, the podcast that shows how we can change the world.

Claudia R E:  00:56   This episode, the revolution in artificial intelligence and what it means for the Sustainable Development Goals.

Edie Lush:   01:02 This is an important topic. In just the past few months we have heard warnings that artificial intelligence could derail efforts to achieve the SDGs,

Claudia R E: 01:11   But whether that happens is really up to all of us, which is what we will discuss precisely in this episode right after we thank the sponsors whose intelligence makes it possible for us to be here.

Edie Lush:   01:28  This episode is sponsored by Mastercard. Stay tuned later for an interview with Jennifer Rademaker, Executive Vice President of Global Customer Delivery at Mastercard. She’s going to share some stories of how Mastercard is working to bring financial inclusion

Claudia R E: 01:43  And also thanks to CBS News Digital and to Harmon, the official sound of the Global GoalsCast.

Claudia R E: 01:53  Welcome back to the Global GoalsCast. I am Claudia Romo Edelman

Edie Lush: 01:56  And I’m Edie Lush. We’ve been hearing a lot about artificial intelligence, surgery by robots, pizzas by drone, payment by facial recognition, even music. In fact, we’re talking over an AI created track right now from a company called Jukedeck, which offers this service to podcasters. But a lot of the conversation I’ve heard has been from a very global north perspective

Claudia R E: 02:24 Dating apps and food delivery really are first world uses, don’t you think Edie? But both the challenges and the opportunities of AI are global.

Edie Lush:  02:32   In fact, we decided to do this episode after a global report warned there could be worsening inequality both within countries and between countries as a result of AI, unless artificial intelligence and its uses are integrated into countries in the global south, not just the highly developed tech savvy countries of the global north.

Claudia R E:  02:55  You interviewed one of the authors of that report didn’t you Edie?

Edie Lush: 02:58   Yes. Michael Chui and we’re going to hear from him later. I also spoke to my friend Rosemary Leith. She’s the co-director of the Worldwide Web foundation along with her husband Sir Tim Berners Lee, who invented The Web. Later we’re going to hear her boil down to one word the challenge of achieving the SDG’s in the age of AI and Claudia, you are going to like this word.

Claudia R E:  03:21  Oh, what is that word then?

Edie Lush: 03:22  The word is inclusion.

Claudia R E:  03:23  Oh yeah, and as we say, here are the global goalscast the world is already diverse. We just need to make it more inclusive in order to achieve equity.

Edie Lush: 03:32   Exactly and in AI that means getting out of Silicon Valley to find out how things look from other perspectives. To do this. I sought out two experts in Africa.

Nathalie M:  03:45 A lot of the discussion around the SDG’s is how do we help Africa’s cheapest cities, but there’s a lot of very innovative and interesting things that are happening on the continent and because the continent does not suffer from legacy systems, there is really an opportunity to have immediate impact.

Edie Lush: 03:59  That is Natalie Munyampenda, who is managing director of the Next Einstein Forum. They believe the next Einstein will be from Africa and they’re doing everything they can through education and training to make that happen. She really emphasized the importance of solutions developed in Africa by Africans for African challenges. She introduced me to Abdigani Diriye who works at the IBM research lab in Nairobi and he captured the difference between how AI is often talked about in the global, north and south.

Abdigani Diriye: 04:34  I think the conversation really needs to be around how we can effectively use artificial intelligence to improve the human condition and how we can prepare ourselves and the next generation. I think that the impending problem of premature de-Industrialization is one that I think the continent has to definitely be mindful and keep a very close eye on simply because as we jump from industrialization straight into services automation becomes ever more possible.

Claudia R E:  05:12   Edie. That’s a new phrase to me. Premature de-industrialization, that means wiping out industrial jobs before a country’s ready for the transition. Is that correct?

Edie Lush: 05:21  Yes. It’s a challenge everywhere, but it presents specific challenges in Africa. As Natalie explained

Nathalie M:    05:28  We have to be thinking about the future of work and so will we need 500 plumbers in the future. So there are many things that we need to be thinking about today, but from a more a holistic system. So if Rwanda decides that it’s going to specialize in high end research in healthcare, what does the type of engineers the the amount of engineers you will need thethe specialized researchers, you will need all the other parts and saying, okay, which part of this will be disrupted by AI if we look at it from a global perspective? I think finally, from my perspective, there really needs to be, sometimes governments can be overwhelmed on the content because you’re receiving feedback from the IMF, you’re receiving feedback from the World Bank, everybody’s telling you how you should be doing your business.

Abdigani Diriye:  06:09  It’s almost like we’re trying to prevent something that’s impending. Right? You know that automation is happening, but we can definitely change how fast and we can also choose how we can upskill our people so they can go on and be productive members of society

Edie Lush:  06:29  More than anything Abdigani and Nathalie stressed the importance of integrating advanced thinking about AI into all of what they called Africa’s grand challenges from education, water use, to energy, healthcare and financial inclusion

New Speaker: 06:44  And in fact didn’t that global report say that AI will affect every one of the Sustainable Development Goals one way or the other.

Edie Lush:    06:50  It is one of those disruptive challenges that touches on everything else. It seemed to me quite similar in the way to climate change. Unless you address it, you can say farewell to achieving the Global Goals.

New Speaker:  07:04 This report was from one of the UN specialized agencies that you don’t hear a lot from, the ITU or International Technological Union – a powerful group that sets specs for communications and Internet technology. They, the ITU, commissioned Mckinsey, the consulting firm to look at how AI will ripple through the global economy.

Edie Lush:  07:24   I spoke with one of the authors, Michael Chui from the San Francisco Mckinsey Office.

Michael Chui: 07:32   We’ve discovered as we’ve done research on AI just its potential. Certainly across every country for every worker, for every person, for every citizen and every industry and across all the SDG’s, we looked at over 160 different potential use cases of artificial intelligence and actually there are some use cases that map to each one of the Sustainable Development Goals – there’s everything from disaster relief, to public health, to improving education, to improving the effectiveness of infrastructure and so there is the potential for that to happen. There are certainly places where you can intentionally point this tool to try to address a real problem. How can we actually identify a cure for a disease for which we don’t have a cure right now that’s the intentionality of where you’re using these technologies. But there’s also a secondary and tertiary effects of deploying these technologies potentially, for instance, trying to improve the productivity of a manufacturing environment, trying to improve their productivity of a bank for instance. In the process of doing that, you might actually change all kinds of things about people’s lives. You know, the types of work there is, the types of jobs there are, the degree to which, you know, some people get paid more, some people get paid less. Even though you’ve pointed, the tool are trying to do something that you believe is good for the economy, good for society, you might have these secondary effects. And, and again, we, we need to be able to identify those effects and mitigate or manage them so that in fact we can achieve the SDG’s

Edie Lush: 09:01  Chui says there’s already a gap between those better prepared to use AI and those that aren’t.

Michael Chui:  09:06  The leading countries, which in our modeling are the richer countries let’s say, there are a few things going on. One of them is they tend to be more prepared to deploy AI technologies. So whether that’s infrastructure or whether that’s the ability to pay for the investments that have to be made, whether it’s the level of human capital which is more educated and therefore more able to both develop as well as take advantage of these technologies, are a set of foundational things which will make it more possible for AI to be used in a more of the developed world.

Edie Lush:  09:37  So what do you think a developing country should do?

Michael Chui: 09:42  As long as you have access to connectivity and know we’re seeing more and more conductivity in the developing world. It is possible to actually access lots of computing power as long as you can pay for it. Lots of storage, more data. And in fact these software tools that allow you to do machine learning and do AI, you definitely have to have the infrastructure in place that’s important to invest in. You’d also need to have the human talent. And so how you can both invest and import the type of human talent. And develop that human talent through education, training, etcetera, that creates some of the fundamentals necessary in order to capture value from AI. And then to just being intentional again about uh, investing in ways in which you could actually produce the greatest good. Certainly some of them are going to be around how can you intentionally try to move the needle on the SDG’s. There are different ways to do that of course. Right and if you look at some of the prosperity metrics, you know, some of those things are going to be how do you improve the economy as well.

Edie Lush:  10:39  Let me read from the report where you say that job disruption, breakup of old business models and other negative externalities may create the risk of a societal backlash against AI that could limit the full potential anticipated from these technologies. What do you think this backlash might look like?

Michael Chui:  11:00   It’s worth reflecting on the fact that you know, through any of these technology enabled changes through history, it’s actually been true that they do cause disruption, difficulty and real challenge for people. And I don’t think we should ignore or sugarcoat that. We hear people make fun of the Luddites, right? When the stocking loom was there. When you think, oh, these are the people who trying to hold back progress, but in some ways the Ludditews weren’t wrong. During that time period. In fact, significant populations actually saw their income stagnate for decades. Their concerns were real.

Edie Lush:  11:33  I do love the comparison with the Luddites. They were very effective at their time, smashing machines that were taking their jobs. But imagine if they had Twitter. Today, political movements move between the first tool and the physical world seamlessly and nearly immediately. In fact, the UN report warns about backlash, political opposition that could delay or derail the use of AI, which is why Chui says the disruptions must be anticipated and addressed.

Michael Chui: 12:03  Some of the impact will be on workers and I think a lot of workers will have to change what they do over time. Every worker does a whole bunch of different activities and so oftentimes you know, it’s very unlikely that you could actually drop in an AI system and it will do everything that a person did in their job. More likely what happens is individual activities, that someone did in their job, potentially are either done by or enhanced by these AI technologies and that’s what we’ve seen in history as well. There’s a great planet money podcast about, you know, the invention of the spreadsheet for instance. Right, and you know everyone who uses spreadsheet now, their job titles existed before. They’re just doing different things. And what that means is that individual workers will have to have more digital skills, more data skills, be able to understand, you know, work side by side with machines. Every worker I think will increasingly need to be able to use or leverage this technology in in their roles. I think one of the grand challenges for the next couple of decades as a result of these technologies, whether it’s at the sub occupation level or literally at displacing people right out of their role is how do we help transition people? At a very large scale for one set of jobs occupations to other ones. And some of that is a technical question about retraining. Some of it is an economic question about how do we actually allow people to support themselves and their families, potentially as they’re spending time trying to train. This question of diversity and inclusion takes a few related forms. One is, as a friend of mine says, you know, the populations of software engineers, data scientists is often overly male and pale and so that population developing the systems can have blind spots in terms of the systems that they create, that really should be addressed. There was a story that hit the headlines recently, where a tech company was trying to use a system to identify from resume screening who were the most likely to succeed within the organization and they used data around the performance of their existing employees in order to say, well look, maybe you know, the system can extract the characteristics of people who are higher up in the organization who have been more successful in the organization. But what that embedded in that data was gender bias. And in fact, you know there were more males, you know, higher up in the organization and so as a result of that data, you actually saw biases in the system that was there by training. And so if you look at all of these things, I think there are real challenges both in the diversity and inclusion of the people developing the systems as well as the data that’s being used to train them.

Claudia R E: 14:41  If you want to find that report, check out our website for a link. When we come back from the break, we’re going to talk about inclusion in a way you may not be used to. Globally, half the world isn’t really included yet, according to a sophisticated digital thinker, Rosemary Leith of the worldwide Web Foundation. But first let’s hear from another very cool woman from Mastercard, the sponsor of season two of the Global GoalsCast.

Jennifer R: 15:13  My name is Jennifer Rademaker and I’m the executive vice president of Global Customer Delivery at Mastercard. I am also the financial inclusion executive sponsor for North America in our business.

Edie Lush:  15:29  What does that mean?

Jennifer R:  15:30   That’s my side Gig. I raised my hand to be the internal champion in North America of the work that we’re doing in inclusive growth, reaching the citizens in, in North America who are struggling financially. We decided that we really wanted to do a pulse check to really learn what some of the challenges were that the American consumer was facing. We went out to Atlanta and Columbus, Ohio, and we interviewed a whole bunch of consumers that were participating in the Gig economy. Griffith works at a medical industry startup. Because it’s a startup and he’s one of the principlas, he doesn’t earn any money in this startup, but while he pursues this medical startup, he’s got to patch together his income. And so Griffith works three different gigs. He drives a limo, he does package delivery, and then he is a pub trivia host. He’s got a very complicated situation in terms of income, but he has met that challenge through a very complicated budgeting process using envelopes. So Griffith has about 15 different paper envelopes, one for each outgoing expense. So, he’s got an envelope for his, his cell phone bill. He’s got an envelope for his rent. He’s got an envelope for food, he’s got an envelope for healthcare, etcetera, right? And he knows, you know, how much he needs to fill each envelope and he keeps track of how full the envelope is with a little yellow post it on the outside of each envelope. So anyway, when we met Griffith and we saw all these envelopes, I thought, uh, there’s gotta be a better way to do this.

Edie Lush: 17:19  I asked Jennifer what Mastercard is doing to help people like Griffith.

Jennifer R:  17:23  We have an APP that we’ve been piloting that allows consumers to track multiple sources of income. We’re piloting this, for example, with So, the workers can track what money they’re earning through the platform and then it allows them to allocate, the money that comes in to different virtual envelopes to save for the fixed expenses that they will have later in the month.

Claudia R E:  18:01 Welcome back. Jennifer will join us later to share another story of a real person whose experience helped shape Mastercard’s products. Edie, one thing I notice in your conversation is that you cannot really separate the discussion of artificial intelligence from the broader topic of the Internet and the worldwide web. The web is where people will find the software to power AI and the data to train intelligent machines.

Edie Lush: 18:32  Exactly. If you can’t even get on the Internet, you can’t begin to use these technologies, which is why I spoke to Rosemary Leith, the cofounder of the Worldwide Web Foundation.

Rosemary Leith: 18:47 Inclusion is in every single Sustainable Development Goal. It’s embedded in all of the SDGs. I believe that one of the biggest barriers to the benefits of digital technologies being spread more widely is the lack of basic web access. Goal nine says that we should have universal and affordable access to the Internet by 2020. Clearly, we’re far from meeting this target. We just crossed the 50% threshold and that means that 50% of the world is on the Web, but the Web Foundation research suggests we’re unlikely to get close to universal access until around 2050 and what worries me is that the latest data suggests that progress on the affordability in low income countries is reversing. Lack of affordability is the key thing that we really need to tackle. Data is ju,st too expensive in the latest review of prices in low and middle income countries shows that it costs almost 6% of a person’s average monthly income just to buy one gigabyte of data, which is well above the UN broadband commissions threshold of 2%. In Africa, the average is 9.2% of monthly income

Edie Lush:  20:13  Cutting the cost of data sounds kind of esoteric. It’s a lot easier to imagine through some of the specific suggestions that Rosemary made, like building mobile phone mast, which several telecoms then share; or encouraging smaller Internet providers and even community networks and building more libraries, school and community centers where everyone can get online.

Rosemary Leith:  20:36  One thing I think a lot about is gender exclusion. There really is a stark digital gender divide. We’re never going to get close to the universal access as long as women continue to lag behind men in access and use. What’s required are targeted solutions to improve access for women. That includes subsidies for devices and internet plans and skills and training.

Edie Lush:  21:04  We’ve talked about this digital gender gap in earlier episodes Claudia, remember that family of 16 people in Afghanistan in our episode last season about vaccines and trust?

New Speaker:  21:15  Oh yeah.

Edie Lush:  21:15  The only person who had a mobile phone was the grandfather. That’s what Rosemary Leith is talking about. That’s why men are 25% more likely to have digital access than women. So, let’s look at that question about web access. Most people I know probably don’t realize that half the world isn’t even on the worldwide web, is addressing that a necessary precondition to the rest of the inclusion conversation?

Rosemary Leith:  21:45  We need to speed up the rate at which people are coming online. We need to remove the barriers to affordability and we need to ensure that markets for data remain open and compatitive. We need to make sure that those who are traditionally excluded: women, poor people and those living in rural areas are able to get online and we need to make sure people have digital literacy skills necessary to use this digital technology. As a majority of the global population comes online, the web population inevitably becomes more international and more diverse. So it’s important that these people are able to be creators as well as the consumers of the web so that the web’s content is as diverse as its users.

Claudia R E: 22:36  That seems like a good point to go back to our AI expert in Africa. Here we give you Abdigani Diriye from IBM.

Abdigani Diriye: 22:43 We don’t suffer the same legacy systems that a number of countries face, which really allows us to come up with new ways of addressing problems. So, one project that my colleagues and I have been working on is figuring out how we can go about profiling individuals based on non alternative data. So you can think of this as data that maybe is on social media or on your phone to enable people to not just create an identity for themselves but also access financial services. So this type of technology has been used to extend credit to tens of millions of people on the continent. So this is technology that in a lot of continents wouldn’t be deployed simply because there are legacy systems in place.

Edie Lush:  23:36  Some people in the global north might be uneasy about scraping Facebook to establish credit ratings. But Natalie gave us an example of a project in Africa that’s about to move to the US.

Nathalie M: 23:47  In Rwanda, for example, the Zipline was able to stay luck. We’re pilot a drone for blood and medical supplies to be able to reach the remotest parts of the country and remote hospitals where the rodes were not working well. And so they were able to scale that up. So they scaled up to one country, it didn’t work and they scaled up to another country, it worked. So they went from Rwanda, first country they went to, it didn’t work because of regulation, because of slowness of government. Where was that? That you’re going to get me into trouble, but that’s Tanzania.

Edie Lush: 24:16  Ok

Nathalie M:  24:16   So they want to Tanzania, it didn’t work out. They now are in Ghana and they have actually, what we call reverse innovation. They’ve actually gone back to the US. I believe they’ve already started some work in some parts of the US. Uh, so I think there are absolute definite opportunities.

Edie Lush: 24:31  Because of what they were able to demonstrate in Rwanda and Ghana Zipline is due to start medical deliveries by drone in North Carolina in June. Abdigani told me about other projects IBM research has developed in Africa that will also benefit my home state of California, stopping my mom’s house from burning down

Claudia R E: 24:49  Which is always a good thing.

Abdigani Diriye: 24:51  There currently is one project that is running at the lab called ‘Kenya RAPID’ And it stands for Kenya’s arid semi arid lands program and the objective of this program is to enable better access to data in regions that have traditionally suffered from droughts. So we’ve been deploying this and testing this in northern Kenya with several counties. And the just of the technology that we’ve developed is a water management platform that aggregates IOT data and is able to identify when a particular borehole is likely to fail. So that would allow county offices in the region to act ahead of time and address those mechanical issues. We’re also leveraging this data to help planning, so they’re able to identify and plan for the year ahead in terms of how much water they’re citizens and the wildlife around them would need. So this program has been running for about three years. Also undertaking a project that now tries to take what we’ve been doing here in Africa and reverse that and take it to the west. So there’s a project in California that tries to apply a lot of the techniques in the Kenya RAPID Project and leverage our water management platform to try and address the problem of water scarcity in California. So that’s a proud moment for us because not only does it show that our technology is being tested and leveraged, but also it can not only address Africa’s problems, but the problems facing the whole world.

Claudia R E: 26:35  Local people applying their knowledge to local issues. It is time for wrap. You usually just get Edie and I, witty, smart, and even sometimes well informed; but in this episode we want to try something very special. Someone who actually knows what he’s talking about and leading it. He’s a good friend and a great talent. His name is Chris Fabian, Senior Advisor on Innovation to the Executive Director of UNICEF. Welcome Chris.

Chris Fabian: 27:08  Hi Claudia. Thanks so much.

Claudia R E:  27:09  You’re all the way from Geneva, right?

Chris Fabian: 27:11  Yeah, I’ve just landed here, um, actually to talk about issues of artificial intelligence and connectivity, so the timing couldn’t be better.

Edie Lush: 27:18  What is UNICEF doing to be involved in this debate?

Claudia R E: 27:21  UNICEF has been involved in technology and looking at how we can use technology to serve children better for many years. And it seems to us as we’re entering this world of new data and new algorithms that can do things at increasingly accelerated speeds, that we have an opportunity to take advantage of them and use them to do things like understand where nutrition might be a problem or where after an emergency we need to send our disaster supplies. I’ll give you a really clear example in my mind of an opportunity, which is that during the recent Zika crisis in central and South America, we were able to start using data from a bunch of different companies, data about where people were moving and what type of phones they were using and how and use that to calculate the risks of exposure to this disease. And that was something that was previously impossible. We were able to do in real time what would normally take months or even years to do with paper surveys. And you can imagine doing the same thing during the Ebola response. And in fact we did start getting data from network operators in West Africa that allowed us to see where people were moving and then where the disease was moving. But the problem is that while it’s easy to apply those techniques in a very developed area with a lot of connectivity in Geneva, or in New York, if you’re looking at eastern DR Congo in the Far East, there’s very, very little signal. And so we have a responsibility to make sure that we’re getting that data and that we’re working with companies in new ways.

Claudia R E:  28:39   One of the big red flags that I have is how AI particularly could accent with exclusion.

Chris Fabian:  28:48   This is the thing that worries me most, which is that we get a set of policy and guidance developed by a bunch of white men in Silicon Valley that tries to speak to world

Edie Lush:  28:57  I think Michael Chui called a male and Pale.

Chris Fabian: 29:00  There you go. I’ll steal that. You know, four out of five jobs that will be lost due to automation will be jobs that women hold. And that’s because the automation is automating these things that are at the furthest removed from a densely packed urban environment. And it’s just augmenting and reinforcing the bias that we see already. And that’s really troubling. That only thing that I mean I see as a very basic pointer is that we have to develop the technology and the skills everywhere. It can’t just be the domain of a few cities, a few countries, or a few types of people. And in order to develop artificial intelligence and the technologies around it, you need connectivity. And we live in a world where there are huge gaps in connectivity for communities and for people. And not only do they not have access to the right tools for them, there’s just zero kilobytes at all. And so another thing that I’m very excited to be discussing here in Geneva over the next few days is how we can start looking at creating that global connectivity and whether it’s the, the local mesh networks that we heard about earlier or just making sure that we can do advanced market commitments in market shaping with big connectivity budgets.

Edie Lush:  30:05  Wait. What’s a mesh network?

Chris Fabian:  30:05 So a mesh network is this i-, I like it because it just sort of esoteric and anarchist vision of the Internet, which I approve of in in some deep personal sense. But a Mesh network, you can think about it like a little mini Internet, an Internet where people are connected to each other dynamically, where they don’t have to connect necessarily to the big internet, but you could have a mesh network for your village or if you’re on a boat, you can have everybody sharing the same small set of information and then eventually when you connect to the big internet you can share back and forth, but it gives you much of the capacity, like a local library or a local cache of the internet and those types of solutions are being developed in places where you don’t necessarily have the big connectivity providers coming in.

Claudia R E: 30:46  I was just coming back yesterday from China and I went to visit with my children and my husband an AI accelerator, the largest actually in Shanghai, of, a set up by a guy called Kai-Fung Lee, who, uh, ran Google and it used to be, you know, Microsoft. He did his PHD on artificial intelligence 20 years ago and was really interesting to have a sense of how China has got a plan for AI and is committed AI development at not only at the governmental level but also at the foreign affairs label because they are also heavily investing in Africa in order to develop that. A red flag that I got from there, is that how we will have two parallel worlds, where you have China having a set of data and developing artificial intelligence with no connection to the West for example.

Chris Fabian: 31:36  When I talked to Kai-Fu in New York a few months ago, he was also talking about these two worlds and I think that it really comes down to the need to develop models and algorithms and all of the kind of funny complex math that you can put on this data in a way that’s open and public and principle based and that can be done regardless of where that’s being, where it’s being developed and it’s important for many reasons. I’ll just give you like maybe two examples of where we see this having a huge potential. The ability to apply complicated math to sort of large, large amounts of data. One is in the space of education and clearly whether it’s in western China or east Africa or anywhere else in the world, the ability to provide a kid with the right material at the right time and have them interact with it individually is what differentiates a good learning experience from a bad one, among many other things. And the ability to use data and understand what’s needed and when is extremely powerful. One other example is in the space of identity, we’re seeing face recognition now increasingly ubiquitously used through airports across the world and that relies on machine learning, and we know that if there’s bias in there, there’s a problem. And if there are algorithms that can’t see people of certain races, that’s a problem. But that same technology is something that we’re using to detect schools. So in the same way that you can detect a face and an image of a lot of people, we can pull a school out of a satellite image for example, in, in Liberia where we can see through machine learning where schools are. And that lets us understand where to send equipment, supplies, material and teachers in a way that we wouldn’t if we didn’t have that data. So, I think Kai-Fu is correct. There is a big danger of two worlds. I’m not sure that those two worlds are China and the rest of the world. I think they’re very clearly the world of the wealthy and the world of the poor. Without connectivity, the whole SDG circle with all the different pieces on the side, that whole thing is missing something in the middle. And it is, there’s a hole in it. And if we don’t connect young people to access to information and opportunity to learn maths, English, literature, whatever, they cannot produce the right data and the right models for AI. And so to me that’s sort of foundational, is making sure that opportunity is spread equally. Uh, which which it isn’t right now. If you look at the map of broadband connectivity and good connectivity, it’s exactly the opposite of the map of high school dropouts where there is connectivity, there are fewer dropouts. We know that connectivity provides access to opportunity and choice and there are a lot of scary things on the Internet too, but fundamentally if we don’t have a diverse set of users and creators, programmers making this stuff, we’re going to end up in a world that’s even more separated than it is now and that’s a chilling potential future.

Claudia R E:  34:12  Thank you so much Chris Fabian, Senior Advisor in Innovation to the Executive Director at UNICEF for being here with us.

Chris Fabian:  34:19   Thanks, both of you. It’s really been a pleasure and it’s been a lot of fun as well. Before I go, I wanted to give the audience a few facts, really three of them so that they can look smart in front of the mother in law, father in law or whoever else at dinner and also three actions they can take to learn a bit more about artificial intelligence. The first fun fact, which will also make you sound a bit pedantic, is that you can keep repeating, there’s no such thing as true artificial intelligence, there’s a lot of complicated math on even more big data, but it’s not yet in the realm of science fiction, not yet. The second fact is that governments are increasingly creating ministers of artificial intelligence or other roles at that level, to engage with companies and technology makers even better and if governments are starting to set up these types of very serious engagements, it would probably do us well to follow along.

Speaker 14:  35:11  And the third fun fact, well this one’s not so fun, but something to remember is that for all the benefits of automation and artificial intelligence, they will take away four jobs from women for every one job that’s automated away from a man. I also wanted to give you three things to do to learn a little bit more. First of all, please, if you haven’t signed up for Finland’s online course on artificial intelligence, it’s called ‘Elements of AI’ and you can find it through a quick Google search. Second, come and follow us and our team online at UNICEF Innovate. You can find us on Twitter, on Instagram and elsewhere on the Internet. And finally if you’d like a bit more of a thoughtful take on some of the effects of artificial intelligence on the world’s poorest people, please take a read of Virginia Eubanks book ‘Automating Inequality’, which is available in print or on a kindle edition. Thanks a lot. It’s really been a pleasure and I’m happy to have been able to share those tidbits of where to look next and look forward to talking again in the future.

Claudia R E:  36:16 And before we go, let’s hear the second half of Edie’s conversation with Jennifer Rademaker, Executive Vice President of Global Customer Delivery at Mastercard. In this one we will hear a story about another one of the people making their leading via the gig economy and how Mastercard is helping people manage the challenges that income stream brings.

Jennifer R:  36:43 Shelly lives in Columbus, Ohio. She is very well educated. She has a masters in journalism from NYU, but she lost her job a couple of years ago and so she and her husband and her small three year old daughter had to move back in with her parents. Shelly realized pretty quickly that somebody in the family needed to have a more formal employment so that they could get healthcare benefits because of the little girl. So Shelly works a compressed night shift on the weekends at Amazon and she does that because Amazon has great benefits for things like health care. And so she works that job to get the health care benefits and then she drives for Uber during the rest of the week while her husband is at home with the daughter. And then when she’s at home, her husband drives for Uber as well. And he does contract work laying floors and so they’ve stitched together this quilt of income if you will. But it’s, it’s sort of a fragile situation and if you think about their, their home life, it’s not easy. Shelly and her husband never get time together because one of them is always sort of trading off looking after the daughter and they’re making just enough to get by. But thinking about Shelly and how she manages her time and how does Shelly get any joy in her life?

Edie Lush:  38:15 What products come to mind when you think about Shelly that helped her?

Jennifer R:  38:19 It’s really the just-in-time payment because her Amazon work is on a paycheck, so she has some sort of regular cadence of income there, but if she wants to buy birthday presents for her daughter and there’s an extra expense for her, being able to draw down the money when she needs it and not have to wait for the Amazon check to come through was really important. The other thing that has really been sparked by Shelly, we have an educational program that we offer free to community partners around the United States called ‘Master Your Card’. What we started to think a lot about is educating consumers on their rights and how to navigate this new world of finances because Shelly’s real cry for help was no education, “I got no advice that my parents ever gave me that prepared me for the financial situation that I’m in right now”, but you know, certainly we are thinking through the kinds of educational tools that consumers might need to help them have the skills to succeed in this new paradigm.

Edie Lush:  39:35 Thanks to Jennifer Rademaker and Mastercard for sharing those stories with us and to the rest of our guests in this episode, Chris Fabian especially for joining us on the wrap, you can find out more about all of them on our website: and we’re going to invite you once again to like us and subscribe wherever you listen and to follow us on every single form of social media at Global GoalsCast. I’m Edie Lush and I’m Claudia Romo Edelman. Today’s April’s fool, but we’re not fooling you, we will see you next time.

Credits: 40:16 Music in this episode was by Neil Hale, Andrew Phillips, Angelica Garcia, Simon James and Katie Crown. This episode was made possible thanks to the support of Mastercard, CBS News, digital and Harmon. The official sound of Global GoalsCast. This episode would not have been possible without Keith Reynolds founder and president of Spoke Media who lent us his ea


Annie Lennox asks “Are You a Global Feminist”


Annie Lennox is the special guest on this episode of Global GoalsCast. The rock star talks about why she moved away from music and into an activist role fighting HIV / AIDS and working to improve the lives of girls and women around the world. She urges women — and men — to embrace the term Global Feminism. “If you use the term Global Feminism to describe what you represent and what you stand for,” Lennox says, “you understand feminism all around the world. It is not only from a western perspective.” At its heart, Global Feminism recognizes that there are millions of girls and women around the world that “don’t have a voice and by using the term you’re making them present and known.”  Facts and Actions are offered by Sioned Jones, Executive Director of The Circle, the organization founded by Annie Lennox. You will also hear about the Index of Women Entrepreneurs created by our sponsor MasterCard.

Featured guests

Annie Lennox

One of the finest and most outstanding musical voices of our time, singer, songwriter, campaigner and activist, Annie Lennox is celebrated as an innovator, an icon, and a symbol of enduring excellence. Annie’s music career is peerless with over 80 million record sales to date and winning countless awards, while her tireless charity work is widely praised receiving prestigious awards and honours. (Full Bio)

Featured guests

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of


Annie Lennox:  00:03 If you use the term global feminism to describe what you represent and what you stand for, you understand feminism all around the world. It is not only from a western perspective.

Annie Lennox:  00:22  Hopefully I galvanize and inspire people to get off their sofas to realize that actually we could all be change agents and we could all transform the world in our own way. We don’t have to be Bill Gates, you know, we don’t have to be billionaires.

Edie Lush: 00:41  Improving the lives of women and girls is the key to a better world. We say that all the time on the Global Goalscast,

Claudia Edelman:   00:58  But how do we assure that that happens? What role must men play in this world where the gender battle is playing out? What is the future of masculinity and in this context does the traditional concept of feminism for short, is it too exclusive? Is it only for women? In this episode we talk with an expert. She’s both a genuine global activist and an icon of the gender bending 1980s and she says we need an inclusive kind of feminism, something she calls global feminism.

Edie Lush: 01:34  So you know, our guest is a rockstar with the eurhythmics, her electro beat and sexy androgynous look caught that MTV moment and her solo career turned her into an icon, but she has gone on to stand for so much more than pop music.

Annie Lennox: 01:51  Actually, my name really is Ann Lennox. I was called Ann Lennox for years until someone changed it at the age of 16 a friend said, started calling me Annie. So my name is Annie Lennox. Ever since I was 16

Edie Lush:  02:09 Yes, our special guest is Annie Lennox. We’re going to talk about her music and about the sustainable development goals because for more than a decade and has been focused on raising awareness and money for HIV and AIDS, as well as building circles of women in developed countries in order to help women in less advantaged parts of the world. We’ll hear all about it right after this

Claudia Edelman:  02:38  Season Two of Global GoalsCast is sponsored by Mastercard. Stay tuned later for an interview with Shamina Singh. as she tells us about mastercard’s index of women entrepreneurs and also thanks to CBS News, digital and to Harmon. The official sound of Global GoalsCast

Edie Lush:  03:02  This is the Global Goals Cast, the podcast that asks how we can change the world. I’m Edie Lush

Claudia Edelman:  03:08  And I am Claudia Romo Edelman. Edie, so great that you were able to talk to Annie Lennox. Isn’t she cool and amazing? I mean, I know her from even before I was working on public health when I was working at the World Economic Forum, probably like 18 – 20 years ago. She was already there like one of the first ever very serious and articulated celebrities that was putting her heart on her mouth into the real action, but she also came across as a very humble, normal, and actually authentic human being. What was your impression?

Edie Lush:  03:42  She came across as very human to me as well. She’s clearly worked incredibly hard to master talking about sustainable development goals without sucking away the credit from the people who are out there in the field helping to achieve them.

Edie Lush:  03:59 I met up with her in the electric club in Notting Hill in London. So I set us up in this room above the club and there was a little bit of a buzzing sound from a generator next door. But I figured Simon James, who’s our sound maestro could do magic and rid of the buzzing. But she came in and she looked at me and went, I thought you were a podcaster. This buzzing is going to give your listeners and me and you a migraine. So we gotta move. We gotta move next door. So in fact we did move to the next room. She was right. Buzzing was less and all. And on we went.

Annie Lennox:    04:38  For well over a decade now. I’ve been very involved in advocacy and activism. First of all, it was in connection with HIV and AIDS is it affected women and girls. And then after awhile I, I became really aware that there were so many issues affecting girls and women, particularly in the developing countries. And the roots of all of this came down to global disempowerment. And so HIV and AIDS is one issue. People are less aware of it and the western world because they tend to have a different concept of HIV, but the HIV aids pandemic, that really was at its very, very worst in the late nineties and early two thousands was affecting women on an unimaginable scale and still is because in Africa for example, AIDS is one of the leading causes of death for girls and women of reproductive age and we don’t talk about that. We’re not aware of it. And that’s partly what I suppose makes me so passionately committed to being an advocate is the fact that we just don’t know about how girls and women live around the world.

Edie Lush:  05:55 It was over 15 years ago that you started down this journey and I believe it was when you met Nelson Mandela. Is that right?

Annie Lennox:  06:02 Well, Nelson Mandela became very active in advocating and trying to make change with regards to South Africa, his country, because the pandemic, the AIDS pandemic at the time was wiping out over 2000 people on a daily basis and no one was getting access to treatment. So it was really a dire, unbelievable sort of, he called it a genocide actually, so he founded an organization called 46664 – his HIV aids foundation, and there was a concert who launched the foundation in November of 2003 which is held in Cape Town. We were invited to perform and because of that I had the possibility to visit health care facilities, orphanages, clinics, people’s homes where people were affected by HIV and aids, and I saw the pandemic personally, and that witnessing of the reality hit me so hard that it completely changed the paradigm of my perception as to what poverty looks like, what lack of empowerment looks like, what HIV and AIDS is about. if you can’t get access to treatment.

Annie Lennox: 07:20 Ever since then, really I felt I had to use my platform in some way, become an yeah, become an activist really.

Edie Lush: 07:28  And you have created your own organization now called The Circle. What was the inspiration behind founding that?

Annie Lennox:  07:36 Well, I don’t like to think of the circle is my organization. I had an idea about what could be done and I founded something that ended up being called The Circle, but in the initial thinking behind The Circle is basically that women in the western world are hugely resourced. Whether we realize it or not, we have access to just about everything we want. We have had the vote for several years now and we have access to running water, clean, running water, hot and called out of our tops, sanitation, health care. I mean so many things that we take for granted, but women in the so called developing world have very little of that and they’re nowhere near even the bottom most rung of the ladder when it comes to their rights, to their human rights.

Annie Lennox: 08:25  Basically the circle supports grassroots organizations that are run by women or for women and really the issues could be anything ranging from access to primary school education to healthcare, to knowing one’s rights, physical violence, sex trafficking, child brides. There are so many issues that girls face. You know, I’m kind of amazed that more people don’t know about what the truth about girls’ and women’s rights living in countries where the really basically have almost none. That’s why I endorsed the term global feminism and I described myself as a global feminist and I encourage boys and men to be part of this inclusive term. If you describe yourself as a global feminist, basically you’re representing millions of girls and women that just don’t have a voice and you’re making them present and known and you’re giving value to that term.

Edie Lush:  09:41 She told me that global feminism was a term she’d picked up from Bell Hooks, the feminist author hooks wrote a book called Feminism is for Everyone, which is sometimes described as the answer to the question, when’s international Men’s Day? I asked Annie to describe how the projects at The Circle, were advancing global feminism.

Annie Lennox: 10:00  So altogether at the moment we have 11 circles trying to make a difference and transform situations with different organizations that are grassroots organizations. So, for example, we have the Marie Colvin journalists circle, which works with female journalists in the Middle East trying to advise, mentor, empower them and advise them to keep their lives safe. This is because of Marie Colvin, the renowned war correspondent who was killed in Homs about seven years ago. There’s a currently as a film about Marie that people may or may not have seen called A Private War

Annie Lennox: 10:42  We also have an organization in South Africa called Nonceba that we support. It’s a shelter for really victims of violence, domestic violence. They come there with their children and they have a safe haven. There’s accommodation for a few families and basically, you know, you’re, you’re talking about a township, let’s say Khayelitsha which is outside of Cape Town, which, um, has about one and a half million residents. And as a woman living, there trying to raise a family. You’re in a very precarious situation with a violent partner of violent father violence all around you and rape. You know, one in four men in the country have said that they rape and it’s actually looked on as quite normal practice

Edie Lush: 11:28 At the Global GoalsCast. We love to focus on the stories of success, how we are making the world a better place, but we also sometimes like to look

Annie Lennox:   11:37 I think we’re far from success

Edie Lush:  11:37  Yeah. Well, sometimes we like to look at the things that haven’t gone so well. The missteps,

Annie Lennox:  11:41 Almost everything. I can say is that when you look at the UN goal number five, which purports to aspire to equality for girls and women around the globe. At the same time, we know that we are so, so far away from it that people describe progress is being glacially slow. I cannot sit here in all honesty and tell you that I feel hugely optimistic because the statistics that we quote about global feminism are just so unbearable. I mean to actually think that one in three women around the world have experienced physical or sexual violence in their lifetime. It’s, it’s the the scale of this abuse is so horrendous and you wonder, well, where do you start? Where do you begin to even respond to something like that? And what I feel is that it takes a whole cultural, social, psychological, Zeitgeist shift in attitude, attitudes need to change before behavior can be changed.

Annie Lennox: 12:50  You know, misogyny is about an attitude and after attitude becomes behavior – misbehavior. And I’m a heterosexual woman and I love men. And part of my sort of resistance years ago to describing myself as a feminist was because I actually felt that that stridency against men was not very helpful cause I really liked men and I wanted to kind of be their friend. But later on now, much later on down the line, I totally get it. And I actually really believe stridency is hugely important and it’s part of that kind of, how would I say? Like there’s all kinds of extremes in a movement. You get very, very strident and very, very angry, very, very extreme that matters. People are angry and then you get middle ground people that say, yeah, well I’m not really, you know, a feminist but kind of get it. Uh, and there’s just all kinds of ways to interpret feminism. And you know what? I think at this point in the stage of the game, we must look at ways of being inclusive of everyone. If we call ourselves feminists, we must include the world. So we must also use the term global feminism and that kind of sums it all up. That is an umbrella term that brings us all to the table and creates a sort of harmony rather than this polarization that tends to occur. The splitting that occurs, the factiousness, which I think is not helpful.

Edie Lush: 14:30 How do you bring more men and boys along in this journey do you think?

Annie Lennox:  14:38 I think first of all, by giving the permission to come on, there are many man, many, many men who know that feminism just makes absolute sense and they endorse it, but there be feeling the unwelcome and that has been expressed for many years vociferously that men are not welcome, that we can do it. Of course we can do things, but without men’s support, yes, I realize that, but wouldn’t it be better if we had men and boys on board the debate so that we could help them to be agents of change, change their attitudes, change their cultural behavior, the historical behavior? I think men must be part of this whole picture.

Edie Lush: 15:24  Can you define what is a global feminist? How is it different from a normal feminist?

Annie Lennox: 15:31  If you use the term global feminism to describe what you represent and what you stand for – you understand feminism all around the world. It is not only from a western perspective, you know, for example, that one out of three women have experienced physical or sexual violence in their lifetime. You know, for example, that HIV and AIDS is one of the biggest killers of girls of reproductive age in Africa. You know that the facts are so outrageous, so extreme. The disempowerment is so extreme. You know what you’re representing. You also could be a man or a young man can comfortably describe themselves as a global feminist without feeling uncomfortable with the term. It wasn’t that long ago when we couldn’t really comfortably use the word feminist that people that actually were feminists were uncomfortable with it because it may be said, oh, maybe it means I hate man.

Edie Lush: 16:40 Did you feel that?

Annie Lennox: 16:42  Back in the 70s I felt that I wasn’t strident enough. I felt that I was too soft, you know, because I wanted to wear high heels and I wanted to wear red lipstick and I wanted to shave my legs and dye my hair and do what wear makeup. So I thought maybe I’m just not good enough to be a feminist because I’m kind of betraying, you know, something. It’s so interesting because attitudes change and shift. And then as I grew older I realized, oh my goodness, I so am a feminist. That’s really, no, no. I said I’m a global feminist because I want to always incorporate everything that’s happening in the world, not just in the, you know, in the western countries.

Claudia Edelman:  17:36 After the break, we will hear more from Annie Lennox on feminism, gay rights, her music and being a mom. By the way. Edie, did I tell you that my daughter and her last concert in school sang sweet dreams are made this

Edie Lush:  17:50  That’s so cool

Claudia Edelman: 17:50  Should I send, should I send an audio recording of it? I think you should anyways, first before going any further with Annie Lennox and having the temptation of singing to you all, which we could, could we not? We could.

Edie Lush:  18:04  We totally could. Let us share our conversation with that top executive at our sponsor Mastercard. Her name is Shamina Singh, President of the Mastercard Center for inclusive growth.

Shamina Singh:  18:21  It’s important to really think about entrepreneurism growing business and think about women in the same conversation. A little known fact is women actually hold the majority of business licenses around the world. What unfortunately, again, the potential of reaching business growth is something that they haven’t achieved and the numbers that we’d like to see. So we’ve actually developed an index of women entrepreneurs that we’ve released the second version and we look around the globe and we examine sort of what’s happening and where. What we’re finding is that indeed to no surprise in the developing markets where there are more contracts and rules of the road – formalized protocols, women have a better chance of succeeding. In places where it is a little bit less structured in developing markets. At this point, women don’t have as much access. So land rights for example, and access to capital, things of that sort of – harder to achieve.

Shamina Singh: 19:21 If you think about developing markets and the amount of land that’s used for agriculture and who’s working that land, it’s women. And if you think about the fact that maybe in one particular village or something like that, if a person has five acres of land, it all depends on your ability to access the, the tools, the equipment, the information you need to produce that land in a way that works for you and works for your village. Women have to work harder to get the same amount of information that they need to till the soil. It sounds strange, but it’s true. And so we’ve really worked on creating products and technology solutions that recognize that all things don’t apply to all people everywhere. So we really have customized something that we’re calling the Mastercard farmer’s network. It’s a way that we really think we can reach women who frankly are the majority of small holder farmers in the world. This allows women to negotiate from their farm to say, okay, here comes the order. Here’s what I have, here’s what I can produce, here’s when I can send it, and then the money comes directly to the woman. So think about that.

Shamina Singh: 20:36   There are probably five intermediaries normally between cash changing hands – between the market owner to the bicycle owner to the motorcycle to this to finally gets to the woman – this cuts it all out and says, here’s the price, here’s how much, here’s when and the market sends the transportation out to pick up the produce and bring it back.

Claudia Edelman:  21:04 Welcome back in the second half of your interview with Annie Lennox, it sounds like you tried to get a little bit more personal.

Edie Lush: 21:13 In fact, Annie started turning the questions on me and even helping me out, asking my own questions.

Annie Lennox:  21:20 What do you think a strong woman is?

Edie Lush:  21:22 I think somebody who’s okay with who they are and being comfortable in your own skin. I have also heard people say that, you know, you became a bit of a, an icon within the gay and Trans Community because of the way you dressed at the time with suits and great hair and – does the sexual ambiguity from the time of the eighties and the nineties uh, and how it’s kind of become,

Annie Lennox:  21:46  hmm. Well that’s interesting.

Edie Lush:   21:48  I don’t know, does it?

Annie Lennox:  21:48 Well, it’s interesting how you want to, I know what you’re trying to – I think I know the question that you’ve kind of,

Edie Lush: 21:54 I don’t really know what I’m actually saying.

Annie Lennox:  21:56  What you’re saying is times have changed so significantly over the decades. You know, when I came down to London, I really didn’t think I knew anybody who was gay. I didn’t even know the word gay because there wasn’t a word. And when I came to the Royal Academy of Music, I met lots and lots of gay men mainly, and they were kind of in the closet. And so looking back, I’ve seen how hard it’s been for queer people as I hate these labels, you know, but the self identified queer people to come out of the closet and be comfortable in a world that was always dangerous for them, where they were all was being mugged.

Annie Lennox: 22:34 It’s still a world like that it can still be a world where you’re bullied. And now with the millennial generation, that would be my daughter’s generation. There’s a whole other take on gender orientation and sexuality, which is so many light years away from decades ago. And it’s really interesting and it’s in transit, it’s changing all the time and people are struggling, they’re looking for labels – they’re looking for what is politically correct, what is politically incorrect. And sometimes older generation has difficulty to, you know, to kind of catch up with it all. But I think that’s why a general term like global feminism, which is inclusive is a beautiful thing because it’s very harmonious. So it’s very accepting of everything and everyone in a way. And it’s saying that yes, feminism can be all things to all people in. But actually could we just look at the bigger picture as well?

Edie Lush:  23:40  So in the episode that I just finished that, and in fact launched today, had a young comic who, Israeli comic who left peacebuilding because she found that she could do much more in terms of bringing Jews and Arabs together through comedy than she could actually as a peace builder. So I wonder if you feel like you’re reaching more people now through your activism than you were as a musician?

Annie Lennox: 24:06 It’s a very good question. As a musician? You know, personally I wanted to touch people’s emotions, their intellect and articulate feelings through songs, you know songs are great messages for everyone they’re – You live with songs, they’re the background of your life, you know? And for me, there was never really very often any kind of messaging behind them other than just what the songs had to save themselves with the exception of maybe sisters are doing it for themselves, which was a very much a feminist anthem back in the 80s and it was very specific as a celebration of female empowerment

Annie Lennox:   24:43  For me now, you know, the music industry has changed so much. It’s become more a place of celebrity in a way. Although music still there, but you know, I would not really personally want to enter into the music industry as it stands now because it’s not really a place that I feel as drawn to. I think you go through your life evolving, hopefully not, not being stuck. I don’t want to be stuck in any decades that may, people may think of me, Oh yeah, you know, the eighties the nineties or whatever. People have remembered me in popular terms, that’s fine, but that was then. This is now, this is who I’ve been for quite a long time.

Annie Lennox:  25:30 I’m very outraged and I’m a sensitive person, so I see a lot of injustice wherever I go. And being a woman and being a mother was really another, well, the huge, huge life changer for me. But I understood when you’re a mother, what you want to do is to protect your child. If she’s a girl and you’re thinking she’s going to grow up into a misogynistic world where she’s going to experience the kinds of abuses, whether they’d be verbal, physical, mental, whatever they are, or the disempowerment that girls grow up into. It’s not something that you look forward to. I look at women who are mothers with awe and respect because I know because of my own experience, just what it takes to bring up a child into this world. And really that was one of the reasons why I felt so strongly about pregnant women who are HIV positive and why they had a human right to deliver an HIV negative baby, which is absolutely possible to do.

Edie Lush: 26:40 So I wonder what your aspirations are for the next few years. What does success look like for you?

Annie Lennox: 26:50 Changes is interesting. You think Sam Cook this fantastic song called change is gonna come just shortly before he died, I believe he was killed the sixties or in civil rights movement. And around that time in the late sixties you know, you really did think of change was going to come, that racism and bigotry and hatred would cease. And after apartheid, you thought that would be the end, you know, to this hideous racism, for example, I’m talking about one issue now that still permeates the entire globe. So things get better, things get worse. I think for me, all I could say is personally I try to contribute and make the difference that I can. Hopefully I galvanize and inspire people to get off their sofas to realize that actually we could all be change agents and we could all transform the world in our own way. We don’t have to be Bill Gates, you know, we don’t have to be billionaires.

Annie Lennox:  27:52  We don’t necessarily have to do that though or leave them to do it. For example, if you’re listening to this now and you’re thinking, well, what is a global feminist? Maybe I’m a global feminist and you understand what a global feminist means and you are, you are already becoming an agent for change by endorsing and identifying that title. And that’s very powerful. You know, society just changes. Cultures Change, the environments change. I hope in my lifetime to see something for the better. And I have seen things change for the better. I’ve also seen them change for the worse. So, um, I would say, you know, you live your life day to day, you try to meet your contribution if you can, and your own way. We would love to see the eradication of poverty. We would love to see the reduction of maternal mortality rates in the developing world. We’d love to see women more empowered, respected, we’d love to see men, uh, changing attitudes and behaviors in terms of rape, abuse and violence against girls and women. There’s so many things I’d love to see changed. The list is endless.

Edie Lush:  29:02 So you seem very settled and passionate as an activist. Do you miss writing music at all?

Annie Lennox:  29:07 No, I don’t. I did write a song recently and that it went on the film, A Private War and that was the song about Marie Colvin, or for Marie really, I made music so intensely for decades I performed. It, I wrote it, I recorded, it was the absolute center of my life. And then I had children and I tried to do what women do, which is multitask with my children, tried to be a good mother and be there for my kids, but at the same time keep my artistry up and know I’m in another phase and I’m not saying that I would never write music. But you know, activism really gives this platform to express really what is much, much more important than entertainment. Not that I feel that music is always entertainment, but in a way there’s an aspect of entertainment and celebrity that I’m not comfortable with anymore. I’m really not comfortable with it. And that life of being told that you are a celebrity rather than being an artist or perceived as being a musician, you know, someone with an intelligence, it really is diminishing.

Edie Lush:  30:18 I read that you in an interview, a previous interview that you liked the song. I’m going to wash that man right out of my hair and from from south Pacific, which is both my mom’s and my favourite song,

Annie Lennox:  30:32 It’s you know, it’s very cool. And I remember when I was a little girl watching South Pacific, you know, Bali Hai. And though the fantastic songs,

Edie Lush: 30:40  Did you feel uh, um, I dunno, a moment in that song we thought, God there, you know, there’s this sort of feminist aspect of it

Annie Lennox:   30:46 I was four years old. I didn’t even know the word. You know, it’s so funny because when you look back on your life through the decades, and you think about like what you were exposed to at the time, what were the social behavioral norms and how did you yourself see yourself in relation to the world? You evolve if you’re fortunate – you evolve or not. And I think that through life I have been fortunate in that I have evolved and you know, people think, oh, you have one attitude and it never changes and you’ll always think that. I disagree. I think you can see many aspects. There are many truths and many different perspectives and different ways of seeing things. And as I get older, I don’t want to get stuck. You know, I want to always look forward and be curious about life.

Claudia Edelman: 31:44 I love that conversation. She is such a serious activist. She’s fantastic and she was one of the pioneers in actually making sure that people were using their celebrity and their fame to highlight issues that were important. I knew Annie Lennox the beginning when when I was working for the Forum and there was like the launch for the Global Fund there and then 10 years after by celebrating this incredible institution, she was always there and she’s still there.

Edie Lush: 32:14  She’s still there and the bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, which has also been part of the Global Fund is still there and I’m only mentioning that because our next podcast is going to feature an interview with Sue Desmond Hellmann, who is the CEO of the bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Claudia, I want you to tell me a little bit about how you see the development community grappling with this issue of masculinity and feminism. How’s that all knitting together?

Claudia Edelman:   32:40  I think that that’s the part where the Annie Lennox episode is so great and so interesting and so rich – to open up the discussion about like, okay, so we’re steer the wheel up. There’s a lot of water unsettled about like gender equality and what does it mean, um, for young generations for you know, like for the Development Community and a lot of the times he’s like now he’s a time to explore what is our role, what is our role to advance the rights of women and girls and also what is the role of man in that equation? Could you be a man and be a feminist? Then what does that mean? Does it mean that you’re interested in putting the agenda forward? Because let’s face it Edie we’ve pushed the envelope a lot but the reality is not there yet. Gender pay is not there.

Claudia Edelman: 33:26  If there’s any kid that likes water, probably is going to be a girl. If there’s someone that has to actually go and fetch the food in a family, probably is going to be the girl. So we have not done there yet

Edie Lush:  33:36 And she asked me if I considered myself a global feminist. She asked me if I liked that term and I thought, you know what? That’s what we’ve been doing. That’s what Claudia and I have been doing with the podcast for the last year. We’ve really been talking about how we put women and girls first. We put their stories first and we have featured those voices from Africa, from Latin America, of those people that you wouldn’t normally hear from, and quite often more than 50% of the time I’d say it, they’re from women and girls.

Claudia Edelman: 34:03 So we understand that poverty is sexist. We could adhere to being global feminist, but we want men as part of the equation.

Claudia Edelman: 34:13 And this is the time for facts and actions. Three facts to be able to show off with your mother-in-law at dinner and three actions that you can take to make a difference

Edie Lush: 34:23 And to give us those facts and actions. We’ve got Sioned Jones who works with Annie Lennox as the Executive director of The Circle and she joined us in the recording of this podcast.

Sioned Jones: 34:36  My three facts, number one, 603 million women live in countries where domestic violence is not considered a crime. Fact Number two. Out of the 757 million adults who cannot read or write, two out of three are women and Fact Number three, over 2.7 billion women are legally restricted from having the same choice of jobs as men.

Sioned Jones: 35:03 So my three suggested actions are one. Find out more about the circle and join us at www dot the circle dot NGO number to join our social media campaign this international women’s Day to support being a global feminist. Take one of those facts I just gave you or find another. Write it on a card, hold it up, post it on your social media and Hashtag it with one reason why I’m a global feminist. And number three, support our impactful grassroots projects. Go to our website and donate to one that you choose

Claudia Edelman: 35:43 Sweet dreams to everybody from Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman

Edie Lush: 35:48 This was our interview with Annie Lennox and thank you to Annie Lennox and Sioned Jones and Shamina Singh and goodbye from us.

Claudia Edelman: 35:58  And you must be talking to the angels, the angels in the sky

CREDITS:  36:14 Music in this episode was by Andrew Philips, Angelica Garcia, Simon James, Katie Crone, Amy Edwards, Ashish Pillowall ,Alex Vallejo and Ellis. This episode was made possible thanks to the support of Mastercard, CBS News digital, and HARMAN, the official sound of global goals cast. This episode would not have been possible without Keith Reynolds, founder and president of Spoke Media who lent us his ear.

Comedy can do more than make us laugh


Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman meet three female comics who challenge bias through their jokes and their lives. “I like to play with stereotypes,” says Irish comic Catherine Bohart. “I like to upend them. I like to use them.” Noam Shuster, an Israeli, took up comedy after she failed in more traditional approaches to peacemaking. “Through comedy and performance you can reach more audiences and diverse audiences and audiences maybe I would have never met.” Sindhu Vee (her real name is Venkatanarayanan. Guess how funny she makes that!) explains that her comedy is powered by the “outsiders gaze” of being a bit different all her life. She was born and raised in South India, became a banker, moved to London and married a Dane (they have 3 kids).  “I think the biggest stereotype is a mother in comedy,” She says. Co-Host Edie Lush notes how similar these three modern female comics seem to The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, who fought to break into a man’s world of comedy sixty years ago. That’s a fictional TV show but this is real life, now.

Special Guest Julia Streets, a comic in London and host of the DiverCity Podcast, recommends facts and actions for this episode. You will also hear from Ann Cairns, the executive vice chair of MasterCard, sponsor of this season of The Global GoalsCast. A research engineer, she was the first woman to work an oil rig in the North Sea.

Edie and Claudia also try their hand at comedy, which is why they are sticking to podcasting.

Featured guests

Noam Shuster-Eliassi

Noam Shuster-Eliassi, 32 , is a comedian, actress, public speaker and activist who grew up in the joint Israeli-Palestinian village Neve Shalom~Wahat Al Salam. She is fluent in Arabic, which strengthens her Middle Eastern identity that is based on family roots in Iran. Ms. Shuster has worked in peacebuilding with Israelis and Palestinians, including with populations often excluded from the peace process. Today Noam uses comedy to tackle issues of racism and identity.

Sindhu Vee

Born and brought up in India, with degrees from Delhi University, Oxford University, the University of Chicago, half a PHD, a successful career in investment banking, three kids and a bizarrely gigantic Labrador, Sindhu Vee decided it was time to make her parents proud and start a career in comedy. 2018 has been an incredible year for Sindhu, starting with her inclusion on Chortle’s Hot List For The Year Ahead. She has filmed appearances for Q.I., Have I Got News For You, and Live At The Apollo, as well as writing and starring in her own Comedy Short for Sky. She is a regular guest on the Guilty Feminist podcast, and has appeared on BBC R4’s The News Quiz and The Now Show. This year Sindhu debuted her own solo stand-up hour at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, Sandhog, which was a complete sell-out, with extra shows added due to demand and a sparkling nomination for Best Newcomer! Sindhu kicked off 2019 with a run at London’s Soho Theatre, and is currently on  a nationwide tour.

Julia Streets

Julia Streets is a champion of fintech entrepreneurship, innovation and the value of diversity. In 2007, she incorporated her business Streets Consulting, the business development, marketing and communications consultancy. Since then she and her team have advised a wide range of firms in the world of capital markets, B2B and payments, and offering specialist technology including blockchain, artificial intelligence, cyber and more.  Julia is a mentor for Accenture’s FinTech Innovation Lab and The Investment Association’s Velocity Programme and has also mentored for SWIFT’s Innotribe Scheme, Startupbootcamp’s fintech and cybersecurity cohorts, CyLon, the cyber security innovation programme and Anthemis VC’s innovation scheme.

Catherine Bohart

Catherine Bohart is an award-winning comedian, writer and actor. Catherine started performing stand-up in 2015 and since then has enjoyed a rapid rise through the ranks of UK and Irish comedy. In 2016, she was a finalist in both the BBC New Comedy Awards and Funny Women, drawing praise in the final of the former for having “a distinctive voice and a story you’d like to hear” (Chortle) and in the latter for being “pretty much the perfect comedy package” (Beyond The Joke).

Ann Cairns

Ann Cairns is the Vice Chairman of Mastercard. In her role as Vice Chairman Ann represents Mastercard around the world, focusing on inclusion, diversity and innovation.  She plays the important role of senior ambassador and executive leader and sits as part of the company’s global management committee. Ann is passionate about the role Mastercard can play in delivering inclusion through innovation and has continued to build new global partnerships with governments, businesses, organizations and NGOs including the World Food Programme.  Ann sits on the group board of the Fortune 500 Company Intercontinental Exchange (ICE) and is chair of ICE Clear Europe. Ann has a Pure Mathematics degree from Sheffield University and a M.Sc. with research into medical statistics and honorary doctorate from Newcastle University.

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of


Noam Shuster: It’s a crowd of 300 Palestinians. So I work in on stage and I look at them and I tell him, Habibi, relax. I’m only here for seven minutes, not 70 years. (and more laughter)


Noam Shuster: The political situation here is very devastating. It’s stuck. It’s very hard to talk about peace. Through comedy and performance, you can reach more audiences and diverse audiences and audiences that maybe I would have never met.


Catherine Bohart: I like to play with stereotypes. I like to unpick them. I like to upend them, I like to use them.


Sindhu Vee: Often the stereotype you’re breaking is from the gaze of the person who thinks you’re breaking it


CRE: Comedy can do more than make us laugh. It can make us think… and it can reveal what we are thinking and NOT saying. It can make us examine ourselves and the world we live in. It can disrupt power and be an agent of change. Because when we’re allowed to laugh at something, it can create a safe space to think about it, talk about it, and, hopefully, to understand it.


EGL: Comedy can do all of these things because the best comedy often comes from very disconcerting places. Uncomfortable places. From the experience of being shunned or othered or oppressed or REpressed. Some of the most brilliant and insightful comedy has been birthed in some very dark places. And in this episode of the Global Goals Cast, we’re going to visit some of those places – while still managing to do some laughing along the way – with three badass, bias-busting bitchin’ women who have turned their experiences as outsiders into comedy that does a lot more than make us laugh.

Sindhu Vee: I think it gives me a natural skill in viewing both of my own life and my, the interaction of my life with the wider world as an outsider, which is really where jokes live. It’s really where jokes, live, jokes live in that space between seeing something as familiar and knowing that there’s parts of it that are,


Sindhu Vee: it’s being able to capture what’s universal in a very unique way that people haven’t thought about before. And that’s really an outsider’s gaze.


CRE: Welcome to the Global GoalsCast

The podcast that explores how we can change the world

I am Claudia Romo Edelman


EL: And I am edie lush. Claudia, this episode we look at how comedy helps us bridge the gaps between us. In other words, we take on a serious issue, intolerance, from what i guess you could call a funny angle.

CRE: stick to podcasting, Edie…

EL: ok ok. We will have real comics for you right after this.


CRE: the Second episode of season two of sponsored by Mastercard. Stay tuned later for an interview with mastercards vice chair, Ann Cairns as she tells us about how she broke stereotypes herself as the first female engineer on an oil rig in the north sea…


EGL Also our thanks to CBS News digital and to Harmon, the official sound of global goals cast.


Noam Shuster: one of the places that comedy has brought me is to be the first Jewish performer in a Palestinian comedy festival. ahh! And there were like two guys who are sitting in the front row looking at me. lIke what is this Jew gonna tell us, you know, so I walk on stage and I’m thinking, how am I going to break the ice? Like what? It’s a crowd of 300 Palestinians. So I work in on stage and I look at them and I tell him, Habibi, relax. I’m only here for seven minutes, not 70 years.


EL: That was Noam Shuster, one of the three comics whose work and ideas we want to share with you today on the Global Goals Cast.


Noam Shuster i’m Jewish. I’m mixed. Actually. My father is a Romanian Jew. When I went to Romania to look for my roots, I found out I’m a well dressed gypsy. Yeah. And My mother actually, she was born in Iran. She’s an Iranian Jew. She has eight brothers and sisters. We call them the Muslim Brotherhood. My household is really like a, the, uh, the two cultures together. And on top of that, my parents are these openminded liberals, which is really hard these days in Israel. So I, um, I grew up, um, you know, I care about the political causes, but I’m 31 and I’m single. So go to demonstrations mainly to look for a date. No, and when I go to demonstrations the problem is that the only people who look like they’ve taken a shower are the police officers.


EL: That was Noam winning jewish comedian of the year in London earlier this year. And despite the jokes, Noam is a very serious activist. Of the three comics we met she walks most squarely into an ongoing political struggle. She doesn’t shy away from it.


CRE: In fact she became a comic after failing to bridge the israeli palestinian divide in a more traditional diplomatic way as  co-director at Interpeace, an organization founded by the UN that worked with populations that were excluded from traditional discussions of peace

Noam Shuster I’m not the first one probably to tell you. The political situation here is very devastating. It’s stuck. It’s very hard to talk about peace. It’s very hard to be a peace activist. It’s hard to even say the word peace here. I a role upon myself here to, to, to work with the hard liners or right wing people who are not the usual kind of peacemakers and w we had after years. You know, what I felt like I’m not. I felt like I’m not influencing anyone and I felt like I’m not able to see tangible achievements. And um, and, and basically I was fired also.


Noam Shuster we lack, we lack political horizon. We lack leaders that can dream with us, have strategies with us to our future. And a lot of young people, I think, and me included, W, W, w we choose to share our individual voices or develop ourselves creatively or explore our own, you know, voice, individual voice in the hope that we can, you know, change hearts and minds of people this is what happened to me though, you know, after I left such a huge, you know, organization and so many efforts and really believing in what I’m doing. I was basically left alone on a stage with a mic


Noam Shuster: so I think the turn to comedy was a, an action for me to A) stop censoring myself B ) bringing back my creative muscle to the, to the game also. me knowing that through comedy and performance, you can reach more audiences and diverse audiences and audiences that maybe I would have never met, Israel and Palestine. It’s a small territory and we move between contradicting narratives and communities and places all the time and because I speak Arabic because I have so many contradicting identities within me that I bring into the comedy, so I’m able to navigate into walk in between all of these audiences and these identities in hope that what I was not able to do in an organization set or a political set, I will be able to do a little bit through the laughter and a performance in front of people.


Noam Schuster: It is always just amazing to see how people can really laugh when you’re so exposed and you talk about the more painful parts of yourself, but people also laugh about funny stuff and ridiculous stuff and empowering stuff and, and nasty stuff and stuff.


EL: And that gets into why we’re doing an episode on comedy. By talking about the more painful parts of ourselves, by laughing at the pain, we can better understand each other. And if we don’t understand each other, we won’t ever achieve the global goals, let alone by 2030.


CRE: Whether it’s Gender Equity (Goal 5), or Climate Action (Goal 13) or Peace and Justice (Goal 16) – if we’re going to accomplish the Global Goals, we need to do it together. And sometimes for Noam, just being who she is, doing what she does, can help people come together and begin understanding each other.

Noam Shuster I have a, uh,  a comedy show with a, with another female comedian who comes from a more religious right wing background and when we have shows they’re full, they’re always sold out and we basically bring into one auditorium, our audience, which they come from such different sectors of society, right, right wing and left wing people. And then we’re bringing together a religious and secular and Arabs and Jews. And they both sit down and they hear two women, and just having two women in a comedy show here is already in a revolutionary enough because there are so many male comedians here every comedy night that I go and performed is always like eight or nine men and, um, and maybe there is another woman besides me.


EL: Noam is doing some special things with her work on stage, and her new career is just getting started. I asked her what she’s learned so far as a comedian that she wished she had known as a peace activist.

Noam Shuster  Not to take things so seriously. To be freer to say what the hell is on my mind, not to censor myself,it’s not an easy place to be in, to be a woman here, um, with this mixed background and to talk about these issues. it’s not perfect all the time and I’m not funny all the time and I’m just learning the first steps in this crazy world. But I just feel like right now this is the, the most effective tool that is available to me in order to be heard.


EL: Thanks to our partner One Young World for introducing us to Noam Shuster.


CRE: Catherine Bohart is pulling from some slightly different life experience than Noam Shuster. Catherine is from Ireland and she’s Catholic, in fact her father is a deacon. On stage, Catherine brings the audience inside her Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, talks about what it’s like growing up in a religious family, and shares her experience as a bisexual woman living in a world that can be…less than understanding sometimes.

Catherine Bohart So the first person I ever came out to, I told my mother and I was really nervous. But now I don’t mind coming out cause I’m used to it. Cause when you’re a queer you have to come out a lot, right? Like if to come out repeatedly. And I get fairly common responses, right? I got two responses on the reg. I’ll say I’m dating a lady, I’m dating a woman. And people will say eh – no. Say I’m dating a woman, that’s my girlfriend. They’ll say, nope, ah no, no, no, your hair is too long. So you can’t argue with science. Can you? Fair enough! That’s fine. But no, I will say the best response I’ve ever is when I came out to my mom. Right. Cause my mom has a unique way of both being supportive but also making things weird. So my mom just waited for my dad to leave the room and then she said, me too.


It’s not what you want to hear, is it. I mean she’s a nice Irish lady. So she did clarify right, she said you know what Catherine, I’m not gay, I’m not gay, I’m not gay. Because straight people like to say that in threes. It’s like the thing, it’s all sort of protective spell don’t they? She said I’m not not gay. Right. And it’s not that I’d leave your father for a woman. I wouldn’t, and it’s not even that I’d want something bad to happen to him. No, I don’t. Right. It’s just that were he to die. Then I would be with a woman. Her first words of comfort. Right. Cause I can, best case scenario, I think my mom saying one of two things there isn’t she? She’s either saying, oh, I just have to be depressed to be a lesbian. Or She’s saying, I’ve waited for one of my children to come out to say I regret all of my life choices.


CRE: That was Catherine Bohart, on The Stand Up Sketch Show which you can watch on Catch Up on ITV Hub.  Edie spoke to her after stalking her at an open mic show….


EGL: I literally rugby tackled her

Edie Lush: What I loved about your show, was that you were sort of smashing up against all kinds of stereotypes about sexuality, about women, about mental health. So I wonder if breaking down stereotypes is part of your agenda or if in fact you were just looking for a more flexible job.


Catherine Bohart: Um, I guess there’s like two distinct aspects of that. The first in terms of in doing, doing comedy, no, let’s be like totally honest. I did it because I wasn’t a very good actor and I thought I might like it. And then I absolutely loved it and um, but I, uh, yeah, where in terms of my material though, and I do think there’s something about like, just being a woman who’s queer and talking about that who were even if you don’t like unpick stereotypes, you have the advantage of already challenging stereotypes because you don’t, as I’ve often been told, when I get to clubs, look like a comedian, um, and that in of itself is challenging for people, which is good.


Catherine Bohart: I do think that like the portrayal of lesianism is often so, um, singular or maybe it wasn’t even true. Maybe like it’s cause queer people have a largely varied, uh output.  I think it’s that people interpret lesbianism is like short hair shirt wearing masculine presenting women and actually 1) one that’s great 2) straight women can present those ways. 3), not all of us look the same. No more than with straight people bi people, gay people, we all, you know, it’s like almost like um your sexuality isn’t an aesthetic. Um or it can be if you want it to be, but it doesn’t have to be. And uh, yeah, I just think people have a very binary sense of what queerness looks like.


Catherine Bohart: I like to play with stereotypes. I like to unpick them. I like to upend them, I like to use them. Like I like knowing what people think, what they see when I come on stage because that’s the only way I can play with that. If I’m like fully acknowledging the people see a young like fem girly girl. Um, so I, yeah, I, I do play with stereotypes. And it is intentional, but that’s also because that’s what I’m interested in. Um, and I think it will be almost, it’s almost harder not to as a female stand up right now because that’s what the world is challenging at the moment. And it’s hard not to be interested in and engaged by that.


Edie Lush: So, um, what topics do you think audiences respond to or does it depend on the venue and the night?


Catherine Bohart:  Um, it definitely depends on the venue and the night, like if I go to Brighton, hello, gender and queer theory, uh, if I go to Belfast, the stuff about religion resonated much more. Um, but I, I, to be honest, I try not to second guess audiences because I’ve been wrong so often. Like I’ve rocked up a place that so many times and been like, they’re gonna hate me. And then being like, oh, I, I prejudged them, not the other way round. Um, but I will say the one that universally people find hardest to laugh at is probably the mental health stuff. But that’s just because I come at it from quite a seri… Like I say, I have this illness, I was in hospital, so it’s the real kind. Um, and some people go, Whoa, that’s heavy duty. And then you have to give them lots of permission to laugh. But that’s fun too.


EGL:  I feel like mental health has, has, or the attitudes towards mental health have, have changed in the last couple of years, but it’s almost a kind of daily battle. Um, you know, and it isn’t something that people are still, I think very happy with talking about on a personal level.


Catherine Bohart: Yeah. And I get that because it’s so interwoven with guilt and failure and vulnerability and, but I, I do think that’s changing and and I think people are more understanding of it. That’s why I like joking about it because I think it’s a good way of explaining. The one thing I think we’re still really struggling with is asking questions. Like, we make a lot of generalizations and the thing about mental health is it’s so personal and so specific. So would that be like encouraging extreme rude or nosiness? I think allowing another person to explain to you what they mean about their mental illness or their mental health specifically to them is really important.


Edie: I had such a great time watching Catherine on stage and getting to know her a little bit afterword. It’s just fun listening to her talk. Noam too. And they’re both busting stereotypes about their looks.  Apparently they dont look like…a comic…or a jew…or gay


CRE: I face this in my own life… (Say this in your own succinct words,  Claudia) I relate to Noam…i get it a lot, a tall Mexican Jew??? l


EL: When we come back – another bias buster…. a comedian from India who shows us how intolerance and bigotry can find their roots in the same places as great jokes. And how you choose to use your experience, and your words, can make a world of difference.


CRE: But first – we’d like you to meet a remarkable executive from our sponsor MasterCard. Talk about breaking stereotypes. She’s an engineer, AND (pause    ) – the first woman to work a North sea oil rig.


Ann Cairns My name is Ann Cairns and I’m the executive vice chairman of Mastercard.


EGL  Tell me a little bit about your path to getting here because it wasn’t entirely straightforward, was it?


Ann Cairns No, indeed. I grew up in a small mining village in the north of England. I was about 11 years old when the first man landed on the moon and um, and I thought, wouldn’t it be great to be an astronaut? I think that was my first thought about that I wanted to be in the science field and subsequently, um, I studied pure maths at university and became a research engineer.


EGL And tell me about that. Was that difficult? Was it odd? Were you one of many women or just a few women at the time?


Ann Cairns  Well, actually I was the first woman ever recruited into the research station in Newcastle and uh, and I actually thought once I was there that I would love to work off shore and I became the first woman to work off shore in Britain as well.


EGL So did anyone ever tell you you can’t do this or did you have an internal drive that made you think, it doesn’t matter what other people think?


Ann Cairns  I always felt that if I wanted to do something I could reach out and ask for it. My Dad was always very supportive of anything that I wanted to do and when I wanted to move off shore I actually just rang the head of offshore engineering at British Gas and told him that’s what I wanted to do and he said, you do realize you don’t have to do an offshore survival course where basically you escape from, you know, helicopters that are sunk in pools. They throw you into the North Sea and you put out kerosene fires. And I said, well, that’s just the fun part. And so actually I did that. off the coast of Yarmouth in April, which was freezing and at the time they gave me a mans suit because they never had a woman offshore. And when they threw me into the sea, I nearly died of exposure because all the water poured into the back of the suit because I had a kind of elfin size face at the time in my twenties and it just didn’t fit properly. So I had to have one made subsequently, all of these things that you actually never think about. But when I was working on the, on the rigs in the North Sea and the Irish sea, um, I made some good friends because many of the guys out there who are out there for two weeks at a time, were doing things like open university degrees or practicing for the London marathon by running around the heli-pad and so on. And so there’s quite a lot of sort of social engagement and activity and good chats that we had when we were working there.


CRE: What is up with those women at MasterCard – Shamina Singh… now  Ann Cairns, executive vice chair of mastercard. So coolll…


EGL: Later, we will hear about her work at MasterCard to further financial inclusion. Want to have dinner w Ann


EGL: More from Ann cairns later but now for another comic, Sindhu Vee


Sindhu Vee: I’m a comic. Um, I’m a comic, uh, in London and I was born and raised in India, but I’ve lived in London for 22 years. And this is where I came up in comedy, its very much my comedy home.


Edie Lush: But your name, first of all, isn’t Sindu v, right?


Sindhu Vee: No, no, no. My first name is Sindhu, but my surname is Vankatnaraynan, which is just absurd. You can’t go to open mic night and be like, Hey, that’s my name. First of all, no one will give you a spot. And even if they do by the time they’ve said your name times up to three minutes are up.


Edie Lush: this episode is about breaking stereotypes. And I wonder if you feel like you do, do you break stereotypes?


Sindhu Vee: You know, I’m told all the time that I do, So I guess yes, I, I’m told that. It comes up, like someone will come and ask me to do a set at a girls’ school.


Edie Lush: and what do you think those stereotypes are?


Sindhu Vee: I think one of the big ones is that I’m a, uh, I’m a brown woman, raised in India and you know, I’ve, so sometimes it’s that I’ve married outside my culture, which really in this day and age for Indians is really not big a stereotype, but okay, fine some people think, oh, you’re a woman in banking.


Sindhu Vee: That’s a stereotype for some people it’s a brown woman in banking. And I feel like saying, do you know how good we are at math? Often the stereotype you’re breaking is from the gaze of the person who thinks you’re breaking it


Um, so I think there’s that. And I appreciate that. I can understand it. I think the biggest stereotype is a mother in comedy.


Sindhu Vee:  I had a very unconventional along so many different dimensions, life growing up, always on the outside of whatever experience was going on. And that’s very hard to feel that it’s familiar. Never seen it before. You are different. You’re not like anyone else. Um, so many different levels.


Edie Lush: So do you think that makes you uh, better on stage cause you feel like you’ve been an outsider before?


Sindhu Vee:  I don’t know if it makes me better, but I think it gives me a natural skill in  the interaction of my life with the wider world as an outsider, which is really where jokes live. Jokes live in that space between seeing something as familiar and knowing that there’s parts of it that are……….it’s being able to capture what’s universal in a very unique way that people haven’t thought about before. And that’s really an outsider’s gaze. So I think, I, I think I do have that skill thanks to my upbringing and I’ve learned to hone it because often I’ll have an intuition and I’ll not put it out because I’ll think about it and I’ll say, oh, no, no, no, no. And I think that’s what that thing I’m doing inside, outside, you know, it’s also makes me very nonjudgmental because when you’ve been an outsider, you’re usually being judged.


Sindhu Vee: And the great thing about standup is the joke is a good joke is really always on you,


EL: right


Sindhu Vee: You’re always the butt of the joke.

Julia Streets: Edie and Claudia, it’s wonderful to be here. My name’s Julia streets and I, I’m an entrepreneur in the world of financial services. I’m a standup comedian and I’m very proud to have a podcast called diverse city podcasts, all about diversity and inclusion in financial services. Three facts. My first fact, which really surprises me particularly as a gay woman in the city who spent 20 years of my career thinking, please don’t ask me what I did at the weekend is I was really surprised by stonewalls data recently that says that 62% of all millennial graduates who are LGBT plus go back into the closet as they enter the workforce. My second fact is regarding ethnic minorities. There’s a report that came out last year called the minority report that said that of 2.5 million sample size 46% which is nearly half of all respondents have been encouraged into a career that did not reflect their own personal career aspirations. I’m particularly thinking about mental health and I’m not sure whether you’re aware, but one in eight days of sick leave can be directly attributed to mental health and the mental health foundation basically came out some data that said that if organizations invest in supporting employee mental health in aggregate, they would add 8 billion to the bottom line of the UK economy alone. On the podcast we’ve now interviewed, it must be about 80 or 90 leading lights from business leaders and diversity and inclusion specialists. And these are my three actions. One embedded the conversation about diversity inclusion into a commercial imperative. We need the skills, we need the talent and this is going to drive better outcomes and better performance. The second is to support and support needs to go to the middle management layers. The hiring managers often called the permafrost layer or the sticky middle. And if you’ve been hired in a certain way, trained in a certain way, motivated and peed in a certain way, of course you’re going to always do the same thing. So that my whole points to diversity inclusion specialists and organizations is support to them to take the step, take courage to employ people who are very different from them. So my third is about calling out and every organization, if they want to truly embrace diversity and inclusion, but also to drive performance, have highly motivated teams that are all delivering better outcomes is about creating true call-out cultures so that certain behaviors will no longer persist.


EGL: That was Julia Streets. Reminder to follow us on social media @globalgoalscast . Like subscribe, download, rate us.


CRE: Your recommendation does matter. So do it. We’re doing this to improve the state of the world. You can do your part in rating us so that we can keep on doing that.


EGL: Earlier we introduced you to the Executive V C of Mastercard we heard how Ann Cairns was the first woman to work in the north sea.  Now we want you to hear how she looks at inclusion in the financial world.

Ann Cairns: one of the things that’s really hampering for women actually is that they can’t get collateral. In many places, they can’t inherit property. And although I grew up loving pride and prejudice, that was a story based on the fact that these five girls we’re going to be penniless because their father couldn’t pass on the estate to them. Makes a great story. But I don’t think any of us would want to be Elizabeth Bennet today.


Edie Lush:And tell me how you see Mastercard making a real change, making a difference in this aspect.


Ann Cairns: Well, I know that we’ve been working around the world to bring in about 370 million people into the financial system since we started. And in order to do that we have to build whole ecosystems. We have to work with governments. We have to work with other global companies. We have to work with local companies on the ground and we actually have to work with people, explaining to them how to use our products and services, how to run their businesses in a digital way and so there’s a lot of education involved on the ground.


Edie Lush:And tell me about how the pace of change, how fast things are changing makes that challenging or an opportunity.


Ann Cairns: I think there’s a big opportunity in developing countries because they don’t have the infrastructure that we have here in the Western world with all of the machines and the computers and so on. So everything goes mobile very quickly and you start to solve things in a very simple way because you’re trying to help people who are living on one or $2 a day and so you’re trying to come up with a solution that’s very inexpensive and can reach a mass amount of people and sometimes in very remote areas.


Edie Lush: Give me an example of where you’ve seen real change happen like that.


Ann Cairns:  So some great examples of where I’ve seen inclusion working, uh, first of all in Egypt, alimony payments, the government actually intervene in this. They collect the money from the men and they have the women queuing to actually receive the cash. And we’ve automated that process now so that women can receive that money digitally. Um, I think that’s, you know, quite a change. And uh, and I’m looking for other examples around the world where we could help women in this way. So that’s the first one. The second is I’ve been involved in a project that actually, uh, we’d been doing in Kenya and Tanzania where we’ve been building a solution in our labs in Kenya that we set it with the gates foundation and we built a product that allows farmers to sell their sunflower oil online. Um, well it could be any farming product, but we’d actually found an entrepreneur in Tanzania who would pay female farmers slightly more to encourage them to actually adopt selling their product online. And the thing is, they can do it on any type of phone, but they get real time prices and, uh, and obviously it gives them a better access to market without involving all of the middleman. And that product was built by Africans for Africans in our labs in Kenya.

Credits: Music in this episode was by Andrew Philips, Angelica Garcia, Simon James, Katie Crone, Amy Edwards, Ashish Pilliwal ,Alex Vallejo and Ellis. This episode was made possible thanks to the support of Mastercard, CBS News digital, and Harmon, the official sound of global goals cast. This episode would not have been possible without Keith Reynolds, founder and president of spoke media who lent us his ear.

They Are The Code: Girls in Tech Build a New World


Global GoalsCast regularly highlights the importance of educating girls. This episode Co-hosts Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman talk with two remarkable women whose lives dramatize how much difference a woman can make when she is trained in technology. Marieme Jamme, founder of #Iamthecode, tells her story: Sold into prostitution as a teenager in Senegal, she escaped the traffickers, taught herself to read, write and code and ultimately founded the program that intends to teach a million girls to code by 2030. Victoria Alonso Perez grew up in Uruguay dreaming of Mars. Uruguay has no space program but Victoria persisted and became a trained engineer working with small satellites. Now she is using that training to help her country’s ranchers solve their biggest problems — tracking their cattle herds, preventing theft and reducing the carbon footprint of raising beef. Also, Shamina Singh, President of the Center for Inclusive Growth and EVP for Sustainability at our new sponsor, MasterCard, describes Girls4Tech, a program started in 2014 to teach the foundations of STEM to 10 to 13 year olds. Photo Credit: IamtheCODE.

Featured guests

Loise Wambui

Loise Wambui is a young and dynamic leader from Nairobi, Kenya. She is currently the Assistant to the CEO of iamtheCODE in Kenya. She is passionate about Climate Change and Environmental conservation and has led successful environmental campaigns that have led to policy change in Kenya. Wambui is also passionate about service to the community and has been involved in the setting up of community libraries, tech hubs and provision of free medical camps in Kenya.

Federica Ilaneza

Since 2015, Federica has worked at Casarone Agroindustrial SA as the Ranch Administrator. Ranch “San Fernando” Beef production. Departamento de Treinta y Tres. Uruguay Ranch “Rio Branco”, Departamento de Cerro Largo, Uruguay. Ranch that produces rice and beef. Responsibilities: beef production, animal nutrition, pasture management, human resources. 

Mariéme Jamme

Mariéme Jamme is an award-winning Technologist and pioneer in system change, a Young Global Leader of the World Economic Forum. In sept 2017, she won the Innovation Award at the Global Goals Award 2017 by UNICEF and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation as a GoalKeeper for her work in advancing the United Nation Sustainable Development Goals, supporting globally young women and girls and governments. A BBC 100 Women nominee, she was named twice on the UK Powerlist 2017 and 2018 of Britain’s 100 most influential people of African and African Caribbean Heritage, Mariéme Jamme is a Senegalese-born British businesswoman and investor in technology. Her consultancy company Spotone Global Solutions helps technology companies to set a foothold in Africa, Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. 

Victoria Alonsoperez

Victoria is an Electronics, Telecommunication, and Electrical Engineer, entrepreneur, and inventor. In 2012 she invented Chipsafer, a patented platform that can track cattle remotely and autonomously. Thanks to Chipsafer in 2012 she was the winner of the International Telecommunications Union Young Innovators Competition and in 2013 she won the Best Young Inventor Award from the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). In 2014 the Inter-American Development Bank selected Chipsafer as the Most Innovative Startup of Latin America and the Caribbean, and the MIT Technology Review selected me Victoria Innovator of the Year – Argentina & Uruguay. In 2015 Chipsafer got second prize in Chivas Regal Global Competition The Venture and the BBC selected her as one of the 30 female entrepreneurs under 30. In 2017 she was invited to present Chipsafer at the Solutions Summit at United Nations Headquarters in New York during the UN General Assembly and in 2018 the UN selected her as United Nations Young Leader for the Sustainable Development Goals. 

Shamina Singh

Shamina Singh is President of the Center for Inclusive Growth and Executive Vice President of Sustainability at Mastercard. In these roles she is responsible for advancing equitable economic growth and inclusion around the world. A graduate of the Shamina Singh is President of the Center for Inclusive Growth and Executive Vice President of Sustainability at Mastercard. In these roles she is responsible for advancing equitable economic growth and inclusion around the world. A graduate of the Presidential Leadership Fellows program, an alum of the Young Global Leaders program of the World Economic Forum, a Henry Crown Fellow with the Aspen Institute, she currently sits on the boards of the Beeck Center for Social Impact and Innovation at Georgetown University, Data & Society, and the Global Health Corps. Prior to joining Mastercard, Shamina led Government and Public Affairs for Nike and spent five years with Citi’s Global Community Development Group. Over a 15-year career in the public sector, Shamina has held senior positions in the White House and the U.S. House of Representatives.

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of

Additional Resources


Elizabeth:  00:03 It doesn’t matter that I’m a refugee, that is only a status. It is never written on my face never written on anything of mine. It is never going to determine my destiny because I’m the one to write my destiny. I write my own story.

Mariéme Jamme: 00:15 To invest in these girls, to see them differently. Not just an object of development but see them as women who can actually do something with their life and give them job skills and give them the dignity back.

Loise  00:27  We went to my village and we asked the children to draw a computer and they could not even pass on much a computer was.

Victoria Alonso Perez:  00:33  I never gave up because my passion for space was so big that I kept pushing.

EGL: 00:52 Welcome to the Global GoalsCast

CRE: 00:54 The podcast that explores how can we change the world?

EGL:  00:58  This episode, arming girls with the power of technology, but first a shout out to our sponsors. We can’t make the global goals cast without you.

MC:  01:11 Later in the episode, we speak with another leading woman in technology. Shamina Singh, president of the Mastercard Center for inclusive growth. You’ll hear her describe how innovation can drive inclusion, which in turn can power societies and economies. Also our thanks to CBS News, digital and to Harmon, the official sound of global goals cast.

CRE: 01:35 Welcome back. I’m Claudia Romo Edelman. Welcome to season two

EGL:  01:38  and I am Edie lush. So Claudia, here’s a test for you – a New Year’s test. What are we all about here at global goals cast?

CRE: 01:47        Well, those amazing female voices at the top, said it all. We at the Global GoalsCast are about making sure that you know the world, is making progress, and we highlight the voices of the champions making a difference. In season two, we’re going to focus on inclusion because the world is already diverse and we just have to make sure that we make it inclusive for everyone and bring everyone to the table so that we can achieve an equal world for all. And we are very openly biased towards girls and women.

EGL:  02:17           This episode is about opening up a better world for girls by giving them the tools of technology. We’re going to meet some amazing women. How about a Latina space engineer who’s using what she learned from programming satellites to track cows for farmers in Uruguay and keep track of those cows’ carbon emissions.

CRE: 02:41             Ah da me la todo mami – meaning I want to hear that. Satellites are awesome. Cows are cool. And the cows in Uruguay, that beef in Uruguay. I spent actually quite some days this holiday trying to herd the cattle in Uruguay.

EGL:  02:56    You did?

CRE:  02:56     I did

EGL:  02:57      You’re going to hear about the Latino space engineer in a bit,

EGL:  03:00            but first of all, I want you to hear from one of my favourite people in the world. That’s besides you, Claudia.   Mariéme Jamme. I’ve been interviewing her for a few years. She’s a world economic forum young global leader and she won a gates foundation award for her work creating I am the code. It’s a movement empowering 1 million young women and girls to become coders by 2030,

CRE: But it wasn’t always Gates awards and podcast interviews for Mariéme.

Mariéme Jamme:  03:36   My country Senegal, in the 1970’s it’s still a very class system. My mother comes from a Oligarch family. And so my mother had us outside her caste so they rejected us as children.  So they made us live in a village in complete poverty.  At the age of 11 years old I was raped by my teacher.  I was trafficked from Senegal when I was 13 years old to France.  I was a young prostitute in France.. It wasn’t something I wanted to do. I was under the tube station in France until I got picked up by the French police. My life started really when I was 15 years old. 15 years of my life was taken away from me. it was a very difficult upbringing.  I owe a lot to the United Kingdom. That’s where I learned how to read and write properly, educated myself, um, at the local library. I just fell in love with books and fell in love with the library because that was my safe space.  I was starting my alphabet when I was 16. The education we take for granted today in Europe and also in the United States, many people who come from marginalized communities and deprived communities don’t have that.

EGL:  04:43           Just eight years after learning her ABC’s, she was calling out the biggest names in entertainment. She became an activist after writing an open and critical blog to Bob Geldof and Bono criticizing the way Africa was being portrayed in commercials for live aid. She saw girls like herself in those ads and wondered why they never bothered to speak to anyone that they were showing. While she laughs about the broken English she wrote that blog in now – her point was, why are you speaking for Africa? Why don’t you let Africa speak for itself?

Mariéme Jamme: 05:19  The blog was picked up by the guardian and then I got called to come and join the global development community as an advisor, advise on how we can be impartial on African content. I was vocal, but at the same time I had to out of legitimacy to speak for poor people and for young girls and for the poverty in Africa.

EGL:  05:37 Mariéme wanted to be more than just a voice and an adviser.  She wanted to give more women the ability to speak for themselves,  I am the code does just that – bringing girls together to teach life skills like speaking up for what they care about and giving them the technology to do something about it.

Mariéme Jamme: 05:56  I wanted to use a skill I actually have and not only emphasize with young girls and women, but also teach them the skills I know, which I know that will be sustainable, will be impactful. And then I just started I am the code and I gave myself a goal to get 1 million women and girls coding by 2030.The first thing we do is we organize hackathons. I am the code is based on the sustainable development goals. So we bring the girls in with the private sector to get in one room to discuss gender equality, climate change and key topics that is affecting our world.

EGL:  06:34      When I went to one of her events I saw girls sitting in a safe space, sitting, learning about gender equality, climate change, clean water, quality education, meaningful jobs, menstrual health, gender based violence.  They come up with ideas about how they can improve their own lives, their own schools and neighborhoods with technology..                            

Mariéme Jamme: 06:49  And the second they have digital clubs, so we have our own computer kit is the raspberry Pi based computer. And we have online content and curriculum, which is free. all these girls can use wherever they are in the world, and we open safe spaces for them so they can sit and learn, but also they can do this remotely. You don’t need to know how to code to be part of I am the code everything is self explanatory. Private Sector would like to hire the 100 women Java coders or data analyst or scientists or program managers. We can provide these people as well.

EGL:  07:28           She prepares them for jobs for life too, with techniques so that they can make their own choices about healthy eating and caring for their bodies. That was at the heart of her critique of Geldof and Bono. She took them to task for dictating Western ideas. Her goal now is for the girls she teaches to come up with solutions for the problems they face.

Mariéme Jamme: 07:51              So many issues that women and girls are facing we don’t have any solutions targeted for women, especially from the marginalized communities, and so I just thought that by teaching them how to code and giving them digital skills, I think that’s, that’s our duty as as technologists.

Edie Lush: 08:06              At Mariéme’s I’m the code events. I love seeing how she inspires the girls, but what’s really moving is to see how the girls inspire her.

Mariéme Jamme:  08:16              I see myself all the time. I cry a lot when I see them, but I cry in many ways. I cried because now I can help them. Also, I cried that society still failing them in someone is deciding, deciding  their life. The system hasn’t changed that much. I can relate to them. I can, I can see exactly the dreams they have, you know, the lack of a lack of opportunities and networks and connections.

Loise Wambui: 08:42              The world is a global village, however there are still children who, who’ve never seen something like a computer. So there’s a time we went to my village, back to my village, we were trying to set up a library and we asked the children to draw a computer and they could not even fathom what a computer was.

Edie Lush:  09:03              That’s Loise Wambui, assistant to, and protege of Mariéme. She grew up in Miri a small village deep in the mountains of Kenya. She loved reading the Hardy Boys, got straight As through high school and studied mathematics and economics through university. She realised her real passion was for the environment and helping people.

Loise Wambui:   09:23              When I joined I Am The Code, I got to meet very many people through Mariéme. I got to meet people who helped me pushing my work forward, so now I get to explore both my strengths my passions. Now I’m able to interact with the young girls and the young women so I’m going to teach them about what is climate change about technology. I have projects in Kibera, in a slum like Madare, Ncorogocho.  . These are places that we have gone as I am the Code. Then we reached out to some of the girls who’ve been affected by FGM, which is female genital mutilation. And early marriages. We reached out to the girls in Kakuma which is the refugee camp in Kenya and the girls that are in Kakuma refugee camp.  These are girls who cannot leave the camp because they are in the country on refugee status. So for the first time this year, we celebrated the International Day of the girl with them.

Loise Wambui: 10:21              Miriam came over to Kenya and we went all the way to Kakuma and we give some computers and they started their coding lessons.  Seeing and hearing the big dreams that they have and just interacting with them and getting to see that they have not put themselves in this tiny box that the world puts them in.  Their dreams are quite big. It’s very inspiring for me. One girl at a time we are strengthening the community because we involve the communities that we work with in our work. We look for mentors among the people who are in the community. So these girls get to learn from the people that they know. These are people that look like them.  There’s something about young black girls from the village, from the slums, even from the town seeing a black woman, who has made it, because then they too know they can make it.

Aboll: 11:24                 I felt very happy to see Mariéme coming all the way from UK up to here to help us, and I’m so thankful to her also. I like her confidence and how she talks. I also like to be like her in future. Today I’ve learned about the 17 big goals and I’ve also learned about the code.

Elizabeth: 11:24               It doesn’t matter that I’m a refugee, that is only a status. But it is never written on my face never written on anything of mine. It will never destroy my destiny, or is never going to determine my destiny because I’m the one to write my destiny. I write my own story.

Edie Lush:11:54              Those are some clips of Elizabeth and Aboll.  Secondary school students who live in Kakuma refugee camp and these are just some of the girls Mariéme has worked with. I equally could have featured some girls from India, Brazil, China. You can watch those clips in our social media feed. Mariéme herself finds it hard to believe just how far she’s come.

Mariéme Jamme: 12:30              I can sit down at the United Nations at 44 years old, but if you asked me 1990s that I’ll do that, that’s not possible. I was a street kid I was on the street eating one meal a day and not having clothes my, my life was in the hands of NGOs and Oxfam and, and, and, and all these SOS villages.So I was wearing old clothes, uh, you know, so now, and I’m here going back to the refugee, campss, uh, you know, helping young women and girls and rather than giving them old clothes, I’m giving them computer kits I’m giving them raspberry pis because I know that is the future. I am not saying there is no poverty in the camp, I’m not saying there’s no poverty in Africa. What I’m trying to do is change the mindset of yes, I need some clothes, but I also need some skills because if I have skills, I can buy more clothes.

Mariéme Jamme: 13:22              I am, the code is mobilizing government and private sector and philanthropy foundations to invest in these girls, to see them differently. Not just an object of development but see them as women who can actually do something with their life and give them jobs and skills and give them the dignity back. When a young woman has got money, when she has good skills, when she knows that she’s safe and she can express herself, she’s part of the world and that’s what I’m trying to tell the world by 2030. watch me because I am going to teach 1 million women and girls how to code.

EGL:  13:56           and she continues to be a voice for Africa.

Mariéme Jamme:  14:00              The African continent is growing and there is still poverty of course, but there is poverty everywhere – in the United States, in the UK where I live. Africans want to change the narrative. Yes, of course we focus on refugees and in the problems that is in Africa, but African poverty is manmade because for many, many years in Africa has been in hand of the global development communities. You know, Africans never had they say in many many ways and now for the, for the last 10 years, the last 15 years, Africans are waking up and creating businesses. They invested in the continent. They’re going back home. A typical example to show how Africa is progressing. In 1994, when Bob Geldof went on stage to scream to the world to help Ethiopia that Ethiopia was dying with famine. That was good because that was the time that he could both educating the westerners to help the Horn of Africa and how to help Ethiopia. . But today Ethiopia in 2018 Ethiopia has 64 percent of the parliament in Ethiopia is women. And they elected the first African president. They’re reducing poverty. If we go to hotels in Addis, it’s unbelievable. So I think that’s the sort of narrative changing to progress. Not to famine. Yes Famine existed, but they overcome famine. Genocide existed in Rwanda, but they overcome genocide. We just need to move forward with, with positivity, but also allow Africans to build their own narratives.

CRE: 15:21           You can learn more about Marié Jamme and her work at or at #amthecode

EGL: We’re going to meet another remarkable women in technology. After the break. Now we’re going to hear from mastercard’s Shamina Singh, president of the Mastercard Center for inclusive growth who is  going to share how innovation can drive inclusion, which can in turn power societies and economies

CRE:  And now is the time for the interview with Shamina Singh. President of the Mastercard Center for inclusive growth. And actually this is very pertinent because one year ago when we launched the Global GoalsCast, we did it at Shamina’s dinner in Davos. So it is fantastic to have you here.

Shamina Singh:  I’m delighted to be here.

CRE:  The center of inclusive growth, which now literally is the DNA of mastercard. Why do you see financial inclusion for women to be such a critical topic?

Shamina Singh: 16:30              It’s just a thrill to be here with the both of you having this conversation. I feel like it’s been one we’ve been having for years and to actualize it during this podcast is really delightful. So thank you both for having me here. The idea of financial independence, economic empowerment and control over finance is a cornerstone of how anyone can make it or break it in this world. Unfortunately, what we found is that women have been left out of that process on a scale that is not only hurting families and communities, but it’s hurting economies. What’s more important is it’s actually lost opportunity and I think it’s why it’s important. It’s actually part of the sustainable development goals because as we all know, if you realize the economic potential of women, the world transforms and transforms in a way that achieves growth for everybody.

EGL: 17:27            We heard Shamina from Mariéme Jamme, whom I know you know about I am the code. She’s a fellow young global leader. Tell us about mastercard’s girls for tech.

Shamina Singh: 17:36              Yes. Mariéme is a very good friend and she’s doing incredible work and I think with people like her and with the girls for Tech Program that actually Mastercard launched in 2014. Again, we’re going to create a new set of actors in the technology space that heretofore just haven’t been there unless we make sure that women and girls have access to the learning to the tools, to the education that’s required to not only succeed in this new economy but actually shape the new economy. We won’t realize the potential of what’s possible. So girls for tech is about creating future problem solvers. That’s how we see girls in the future and right now, so we have to make sure that the stem principles are shared equally and we have a goal actually to reach 200,000 girls by 2020. We’re halfway there in 25 countries.  Because we’re a global company with network all over the world – we’re in 210 markets. When you’re a company like mastercard who has reached everywhere – ubiquitous, you have an opportunity to reach everyone everywhere.

EGL:  18:48 Welcome back to global GoalsCast Claudia. You have another amazing woman to introduce us to.

CRE: Yes, Edie.  She is an Ambassador from our partner One Young World –   we caught up with her on a cattle ranch in her home country of Uruguay where I happened to spent my holidays this year.

Victoria Alonso Perez: 19:09              Hi, my name is Victoria Alonzo Perez and I am the founder of Chipsafer. I am an electronics and telecommunications engineer, but I used to work with small satellites and I love space.  When I was four years old my Dad, who is an accountant, he was writing numbers on a piece of paper and I asked him what was the use of those numbers. So he took me to the window and it was a full moon day. So he pointed to the window and he told me that humans had been there thanks to the appropriate combination of those numbers. So from that day I knew that I wanted to work in aerospace for sure. Growing up, most people told me that I will never be able to have an aerospace career. Um, in school my classmates, would tease me all the time.  In Uruguay we have no aerospace industry so for me to be at 10 years old telling my classmates that I wanted to be an aerospace engineer and work at NASA, that it was something really, really strange for Uruguay because now we have internet and we have social media, so things are a bit closer, but back then NASA seemed to really, really far away from Uruguay.

CRE:  20:19           The stars inspired her.  But it was a trip to the happiest place on earth that sealed the deal.  A family trip to Florida really set Victoria on her course

Victoria Alonso Perez: 20:28              When I was 10 years old, my parents, they could fortunately take us to Disney World. And since we were in Disney World in Orlando, my dad knew that I loved space. So for an entire day we went to NASA, so we did the whole NASA tour of Kennedy Space Center and that was unbelievable for me. I mean, I couldn’t believe where I was. but still that it was very far away.

Victoria Alonso Perez: 20:52              When I was 14 I started a project on, on how to colonize Mars. I presented it at the science fair and then I kept working on it. And when I was 21, I got this grant to present the project at the International Astronautical Congress. And that opened me so many doors. I mean, there I met everyone. I was even chair of Space Generation Advisory Council that is an organization is supportive of the United Nations Program on space applications.  I was chair of Space Generation Advisory Council. And through that, every year we do a congress that is called the Space Generation Congress. And every year we invite the NASA administrator, and when I was Chair we invited Charles Bolden, who also is a former astronaut. And he gave me an autographed book thanking me for the Organization of the Congress. So, so yeah, it was a very big journey going from that kid that everybody told will never get to be working at NASA. I never gave up because my passion for space was so big that I kept pushing and I think that’s my biggest advice is that if you have a passion for something, don’t give up. You will only succeed if you’re doing what you love.

CRE: 21:57    Victoria had two passions. Space and her native Uruguay. And she put them together…

Victoria Alonso Perez: 22:05              Farming I knew a lot because I am Uruguayan and our main source of export in Uruguay is livestock.  My country depends a lot on it. and I realized that the technology that I was using I could actually use it to impact the rural sector of my country.

 CRE: 22:22              And so she invented Chipsafer

Victoria Alonso Perez: 22:26              Chip Safer is a platform that can track and detect anomalies in cattle behavior remotely and autonomously. The animal wears a self recharging device that transmits information about it to our company server for processing and analysis. So the farmer can know at all times where the animals are – also get warnings if an animal goes beyond the specified perimeter which is very important for cattle theft. They most amount of requests that we get from farmers is because of cattle theft.

EGL: Claudia I’d say rancher. What would you say?

CRE: 22:58                 I would say … ranchera.  But whatever we decide her title is, here is the woman in charge of the 6000 head of cattle on the ranch Cassarone four and half hours outside Montevideo Uruguay. Fedyrica is currently testing the Chipsafer technology.

Fedyrica:23:28         Here we are having a problem with – they steal our cows. and now we’re trying to eliminate this problem. Putting a Gps in each cow to identify each of them.

CRE:23:40                 I asked Fedricaa what she did before Chipsafer.

Fedyrica: 23:44            We do the same that all the farmers here do. every day we look at them and try to count them. But sometimes it’s not possible. Now in this farm we have 6,000 cows. It’s a big farm. We always know how many cows we have.  The thing is perhaps one day they can kill us one cow and we, we don’t know where. With this we can have an alarms in our telephone that tell us where is that cow. The GPS send an alarm when the cow is out of the fencing.  We can call, for example the police also there is another company, it’s a company that received that alarm and the company will call the police.

CRE: 24:39 Chipsaver tracks each cow individually, sending data and even alarms to Fedyrica’s phone.  it’s much faster and more reliable than a rider on a horse.  But that doesn’t mean horses or rancheras are being put out of work.

Fedyrica:  24:54        Every day we have people that ride a horse. Everything is with a, with a horse. Technology is probably useful for us but never replace the horse and the work of the person.

CRE:25:08             So human, horse and technology will work together to protect the herd..  But Ultimately, this technology will do a lot more than just stop thieves, As victoria explains.

Victoria Alonso Perez:25:20              By monitoring the animals at all times you can get better statistics and better manage your herd. Also in terms of environment for example by knowing the exact location of the animals, we can tell you that the animals have not been raised in endangered areas such as the Amazon rain forests. We envisage a future where you can go and buy a piece of meat and you can know exactly where the animal was raised ensuring it was not having a negative impact on the environment.

 CRE: 26:00              From tracking satellites to herding cattle. It might sound like a big leap, but it’s just one small step for Victoria,

Victoria Alonso Perez:  26:09              So the problem that I saw was very similar. it’s in a very remote location of course in space and it has to, to be transmitting and receiving information while recharging by itself. And it also needs to have the position, you know, the position of where the, the satellite is and that is actually the same problem that you have when tracking livestock because livestock is in very remote locations. Especially in Latin America, farms are very big so the animals can be in very big expanses of land. So I needed a device that the animals could wear and that would recharge itself while sending and receiving information. In 2017 we did pilots in seven countries in four continents. And after those pilots we tested the technology which we showed that it worked. And then this year we focused entirely on the mass production. Now we are focusing mainly on Latin America even though we’re having requests from other parts of the world too.  So we are having a mass production and we expect to have next year a minimum of 10,000.

CRE: 27:17 Ultimately, victorious is helping to solve two major challenges. The first one is we need more food with less carbon emission. Livestock is a major source of greenhouse gas more than the steel and concrete industries put together, but the amount of greenhouse gas can be managed – even reabsorbed into the soil. If the rancher or ranchera has enough information.

Victoria Alonso Perez:  27:43              We have active traceability of animals so we can tell you where the animals have been at all times, making sure that the animals were not in any endangered areas. For example, the Amazon rainforest, but also if we can tell the amount of animals that there were per farm, we can also tell you how much the, the environmental impact was of the animal because the gases that the animals release, they can get reabsorbed by the soil, if the soil is not degradated. So that’s another thing that we’re working on, is on monitoring soil degradation  in order to tell you if all the gases are getting re-absorbed by by the soil. Our main market is the beef markets that is in very big extensions of land. So it’s beef that’s been raised where the soil can reabsorb all  the emissions.  With better management you can use much better use of resources. So I think that technology is bringing this agriculture 2.0 – in which more in which people are being way more efficient in taking care of the environment. Because what we need  in order to feed the growing population, we need more food but we need more food conscience, you know, that we’re not damaging the environment. So that’s how technology can really, really impact the world and really impact biodiversity.

CRE: 29:11           She designs satellites, she’s helping farmers, making more food for the world while protecting the enviornment…so we asked Fredyrica what is it like to work with Victoria?

Fedyrica:29:21         Shes so nice. She’s so young. It’s incredible how intelligent she is, and how can I say in English? I, I don’t, I know it’s perfect in Spanish… (speaks in Spanish)

EGL:  29:53             So what did she say there Claudia?

CRE: That she’s awesome.

EGL: That’s it? You’re the one who has trillions of words. We had like 30 seconds from her and that’s all I’m getting. – she’s awesome?

CRE:   Pretty much.  That’s actually the summary. She’s awesome and she’s one of many women working on bringing technology to agriculture. People that I know that we have mentioned in previous episodes like Marianna Vasconcelos from Agrismart.  There’s an incredible set of young women that are working on agriculture through technology.

EGL: People like the folks we heard who using the Maano app, not even the people who’ve invented them, but people who are using that technology to then bring others in their community around them. People like Charity in the new Lusaka market. People like Mainner Chabota that we featured in the episode on food who are using that technology using the Maano technology that Ebay for agriculture to bring others in their community to the table.  Claudia we always highlight three facts that you can use to impress your mother in law. This episode, those facts are going to be presented to us by our friend and colleague, Anjali from the Nevertheless podcast.

Anjali Ramachandran: 31:08              Hi Edie. Thanks very much for having me. My name is Anjali Ramachandran and I’m an Executive Producer of Nevertheless podcast, which we produce at Storythings `for Pearson,  Nevertheless is a podcast about the women changing teaching and learning through technology. I’m also a co-founder of Ada’s list, which is a global community for women and those who identify as women working in technology with over 6,000 members at the moment, and I’m really happy to be talking about the three facts for your podcast.The first one is that 88.5% of aerospace engineers are male. The second one is that the percentage of women in software engineering or web development roles in 2018 was 16 percent only. In 2014 that was 14 percent. It’s just a two percent increase. Not going fast enough in my opinion.And the third fact is that 60% of the FTSE250 companies have less than 25% representation of women on their boards.

CRE: 32:12      Here’s a bonus fact. Cattle ranching is a major source of the gases that warm the climate. Come back in 10 years and we will tell you how much Chipsafer has helped create new techniques to curb that.

EGL:  And we’re also going to give you three actions that you can take if you care about these issues and you want to do more. The first two come from Anjali of Nevertheless podcast.

Anjali Ramachandran: 32:39              The first action I think that all of you can take is to listen to Nevertheless, which you can download wherever you listen to your podcast app and nevertheless podcast  dot com. Our last episode or second last episode actually was about diversity and inclusion in the workplace in technology specifically where I spoke to a couple of really interesting women working in the field. The second action I would like for all of you to take is that if you’re in a hiring position, if you’re a manager or an owner of a company, try and make sure that you short list at least one woman and one person of color for the roles that you’re hiring for.

Edie Lush: 33:17              And the third comes from Mariéme Jamme.

Mariéme Jamme:  33:19              We need volunteers, we need mentors to mentor the girls. We need to spread the word. I think what you guys are doing and what Edie has been doing from the beginning is giving us a platform.  We need a platform to go and tell the world that these young woman exist. We need the private sector to hire them. They’re extremely amazing young women. Let’s see them as technologists of the future.

CRE:  33:46          Edie this is a fascinating start for our season two. I love that we are jumping straight into the we are all human main theory, which is that the world is already diverse. You don’t have to invent diversity. We’re making incredible progress on that front, but we might have to make it more inclusive so that people can bring their best selves to whatever they are doing and do the best for the world and so that we can achieve equity. So these episode for me shows that including women through technology is the way in which you can improve the world and also the fact that there are so many women involved in agriculture which is so important for the world and you’re adding the third element which is technology is amazing. I am increasingly and personally more interested in making sure that agriculture on the world and the lives of farmers is improved and better. I actually, Edie, just took an ambassador role to represent rancheras in Latin America. They are getting more sophisticated, not only in technology but also in the way that they want to be perceived and represented and they are asking people like me to go and speak out in platforms in different settings about the needs and about the pride and about their contributions.

CRE: 35:05                 I love it and I think the impact and the importance of agriculture is not to be underestimated. We’re going to have a billion more mouths to feed in the years ahead. We need to do it while reducing pollution while keeping plenty of clean water. And we’ve got Victoria working on that. We’ve got Mariéme working on that, Mariéme actually talks about the importance of healthy eating in I am the code. And I love how this episode relates back to our final episode of season one using technology to bring people

EGL:35:38          who hadn’t had it before. Improving their lives and bringing more people to the table.

CRE:  Yeah, and you know what I found fascinating – just recently. I was talking about the sustainable development goals with someone on you know, how vested that I am in this. I mean like that was my job before I was part of the conception of them.  But I never realized that inclusion is the one goal that corporations cannot say they have nothing to do and be involved with. If you think about it, corporations in everywhere around the world, the private sector could say, I have a say in climate change if that’s what they’re doing with water or I have something to do with below the water and under the water and so on. But at the end of the day when everybody has employees and everybody has human capital, they have to work in diversity and inclusion, so I love that this season is going to give corporations and all of our friends calls to action and activities and actions that they can be taken because inclusion is the one global goal that we can all pursue.

EGL: Can I give one geeky thing that I really liked about this episode?

CRE: I like when you go Geeky,

EGL:  So I love that Victoria was

EGL:  36:56 obsessed with space and by the way I was also obsessed with space growing up and I loved that she was a scientist using space science who then turned around to look down on the ground to use cattle in where she was from. We’ve also spoken to space scientists in our episodes on climate change who used the tools that they had originally developed looking at the moons of Jupiter to turn it back towards looking at Arctic melt. And what I love is that the same kind of connections we see within the sdgs. We also see in our guests using one skill to apply to another. I don’t know. That’s my geeky moment

CRE: And did want to be an astronaut?

EGL:    I did. My mom is actually in the studio room as I’m recording right now and she can testify that I did want to be an astronaut.

CRE: I cannot conceive you with like a loose dress with all of your very tight trousers.

EGL: 37:52        What do you mean? Like with the bubble over my head. I could totally rock the bubble.

CRE:  The bubble I can imagine though. Well Edie, this is the time to say goodbyes

EGL: And we are going to remind you to follow us on social media @globalgoalscast . Lke subscribe, download, rate us.

CRE: Your recommendation does matter. So do it. We’re doing this to improve the state of the world. You can do your part in rating us so that we can keep on doing that.

EGL: And this is the Global GoalsCast. I’m Edie Lush

CRE:   And I’m Claudia Romo Edelman. Thank you for being with us today. Good bye.

CRE: 38:40           And now is the time for the second half of our interview with Shamina Singh, President of the Mastercard Center for inclusive growth and explore how innovation can drive inclusion, which in turn can power societies and economies.

EGL  38:59  Shamina in our last episode, we met a fellow from the World Food Program who created an Ebay for farmers and you’ve got something not dissimilar, the mastercard farmer’s network. Tell us about that.

Shamina Singh: We really dug deep and said, okay, we are a technology company focused on payments. What’s our role in making sure that small holder farmers have access to market. What we developed is something called a mastercard farmer’s network, which really focuses on this idea that when you are going to market, you actually have to take your tomatoes or your potatoes or your lettuce and you have to take it off the land, put it in a cart, drive two days sometimes to a marketplace and then sell what’s still fresh and however much you can sell, you can’t negotiate back and forth. For Women, this is particularly hard. Think about the safety and the kids and the family.

Shamina Singh: 39:54              It’s very difficult for them to leave their land and to go negotiate prices for their produce, so oftentimes they have to send it with an intermediary and the intermediary goes, comes back and they give them what they give them and you know it may be the full amount, it may be something. It may be able to last them next cycle. Who knows? What technology allows us to do is to say, look, everybody pretty much has a feature Phone, may not be a smartphone, but you have a feature phone, so why not empower the market place to say, I’m going to send out an order to this network and I can take quantities from different people and you can bid on the quantities that you can provide in the time you tell me how much, how soon, and how far. This allows women to negotiate from their farm to say, okay, here comes the order. Here’s what I have, here’s what I can produce, here’s when I can send it, and then the money comes directly to the woman. That simple tool, allows more women than ever before to negotiate on behalf of themselves for their own economic independence. That’s power and that’s the type of solutions that we’re trying to think about as we think about farmers, as we think about technologists, as we think about entrepreneurs, small business owners, all of the places that unrealized productivity is holding us back and we’re trying to push ourselves forward.

CRE: 41:21        Well, Shamina Singh, President of the Mastercard Center for inclusive growth. A  leader, a friend, a visionary. You kicked us off the first time around. You’re kicking us off this time around with Season Two.  Thank you so much for being with us. T

Shamina Singh:Thanks for having me.

Michelle Cooprider: Music in this episode was by Andrew Philips, Angelica Garcia, Simon James, Katie Crone, Amy Edwards, Ashish Pillowall ,Alex Vallejo and Ellis. This episode was made possible thanks to the support of Mastercard, CBS News digital, and Harmon, the official sound of global goals cast. This episode would not have been possible without Keith Reynolds, founder and president of spoke media who lent us his ear.

The Revolutionary Power of Food


Ahead of Christmas – a time when many of us in the West tend to over-indulge, Global GoalsCast is looking at food with a different angle. Namely, food as a revolutionary tool for development.  This is a story of two entrepreneurial farmers in Zambia – Golden and Mainner and a market trader who sells their produce called Charity.  Golden and Mainner are rural small scale farmers – growing enough to feed their families with some left over to sell at market. 

Mainner and Golden became part of a pilot project by the World Food Program to create an ‘eBay for farmers’ in Zambia (a mashup of online maps, mobile money, camera and a chat system).  They go from selling a couple of buckets of cowpeas (black-eyed peas) in 2016 to selling literally tons of different products (including eggplants and sweet potatoes). They become sellers for their community through this virtual farmers’ market.  Mainner improves her home, sends her daughter to a better school and uses her phone to get books sent from abroad to start an after-school reading club in her house. Golden grows his agricultural business and seed bank for the poorer members of his village.   

The big idea here is as old as civilisation itself.  By connecting to a larger world these farmers get the most for their skills and output.  Their lives and income improve as do those of their neighbours.

As Evin Joyce, one of the inventors of the app tells us, the last decade has seen almost every sector of rich world economies transformed by the latest digital and financial technologies, enabling people to do old things in new ways with greater efficiency.  A similar revolution of digital and financial technologies is beginning in African agriculture.  The questions are ‘how quickly will it happen,’ and, ‘who will it benefit most?’  If the world is to achieve Zero Hunger by 2030, we must answer by saying, ’as soon as possible’ and ’to benefit those furthest left behind.’

The episode also explores the World Food Program’s Local School Meals program in Kenya and Mali with Lara Fossi and Sylvia Caruso – where local farm produce is used to feed children – benefitting both the farmers and the kids of their community.  The same thread Claudia and Edie explored in the episode on Extreme Hunger – the importance of investing in human capital – is reiterated as we discover that every single dollar invested in school meals has an economic return of between $3 to $10. Improved education and health in school children eventually leads to increased productivity when they become working adults.

Two additional food-related stories come to us in this episode from the Global GoalsCast sponsor, Undeniably Dairy.  Listen to two female activists – Jenni Tilton Flood and Emily Hunt Turner.  Jenni is a dairy farmer in Maine and Emily runs a grilled cheese restaurant in Minneapolis, Minnesota that employs those impacted by the criminal justice system. 

Featured guests

Silvia Caruso

Silvia Caruso has held the position of Country Director and Representative for the World Food Programme (WFP) in Mali since June 2016.  With WFP since 1999, Ms Caruso has served as WFP Deputy Country Director in the Democratic Republic Congo (DRC), Deputy Country Director for Mozambique, Deputy Country Director for Madagascar, Programme Officer for WFP in Sudan and Head of Sub-Office in Kuando Kubango and Field Operations Coordinator in Luanda, Angola. 

Mainner Chabota Malungo

Mainner Chabota Malungo is a Maano Ambassador for the World Food Program.  She lives in Pemba district, Zamiba.  She is a farmer and this season helped 178 farmers sell 359 tons of produce through the Maano App.

Lara Fossi

Lara Fossi was assigned to WFP Kenya as Deputy Country Director (Programmes) in July 2018. She started working for WFP as a Junior Professional Officer in Burkina Faso (2002-2004) and has worked as a Programme Officer in Egypt (2004-2008), an External Relations Officer in Rome (2008-2011), a Programme Advisor in Rome (2011-2013) and most recently as Head of Capacity Strengthening in Kenya (2013-2018). Prior to joining WFP, she worked for NGOs in Bangladesh, Honduras and Tanzania.

Emily Hunt Turner

Emily Hunt Turner is the Founder and CEO of All Square, a civil rights social enterprise centered on a craft grilled cheese restaurant and professional institute. All Square invest in the minds and lives of those impacted by the criminal justice system by providing paychecks, power, and professional pipelines to prosperity. Emily’s background is in law, architecture, and public policy. Prior to All Square, Emily spent five years as an attorney for the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), tackling issues of prisoner reentry and housing segregation. She was selected as a 2015 HUD Emerging Leader, where she spearheaded federal prisoner reentry reform in Washington DC.  She currently lives in Minneapolis—a block from All Square’s flagship location—with her wife, Melanie Hoffert.

Evin Joyce

Evin Joyce has been a teacher, tour-guide, soldier and pizza delivery driver, as well as a serial volunteer with humanitarian organisations (Belgian Red Cross, UNICEF France, slum schools in Delhi, asylum seekers in Ireland), before finding work with European Commission’s Humanitarian Department and then the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP). 

He worked with WFP for five years in several countries, including Central African Republic, Ethiopia and Myanmar. However his most rewarding work with the UN happened in Zambia where he designed and developed a new app to help rural small-scale farmers sell their produce at more equitable prices.

Golden Lwindii

Golden Lwindii is a farmer and businessman dealing with agricultural products and aggregating farm products.  He is based in Mazabuka district, particularly Mbayamusuma settlements.  He is an Ambassador for Maano and runs a seed bank for his community. 

Lizzy Charity Mulengu

Lizzy Charity Mulengu is a young widow from Lusaka, Zambia.  She is a trader at New Soweto Market and works together with her mother. 

Jenni Tilton-Flood

Jenni Tilton-Flood works on her family dairy farm – Flood Brothers Farm – in Clinton, Maine. It is a traditional family farm that has three generations caring for 3400 cows, calves and heifers, including a 1600 head milking herd that has been in the family and in agricultural production for over 200 years. Her list daily list of ‘to-do’s includes mechanic, veterinarian, manager, accountant, scientist, educator and economist.  Jenni grew up the daughter of the local John Deere salesman She is an outspoken supporter of all things agriculture and spends her spare moments advocating for agriculture, the importance of the family farm in America and for local communities. Jenni is involved in her community and volunteers regularly with Maine Agriculture in the Classroom, within her local schools and youth sports, the Shine On Cass Foundation and Maine Food Strategy Network.

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of


Our life is not good.  We plant our produce – but we don’t have market.

If we don’t have market for crops, there’s no point in growing for example 100 pounds of cowpeas. Where are you going to sell them.

Its ebay for Farmers.  But adapted to the very specific needs of rural smallscale farmers and the traders who want to buy from them.

Maano increased my income because I managed to sell more than before.

Haha – having a smartphone is a good thing I tell you, I didn’t know how good it is.

Edie Lush (EL): This is the Global GoalsCast… The podcast that asks if we can change the world?

Claudia Romo Edelman (CRE):  This episode we look at the revolutionary power of food …

But first! A shout out to our sponsors – we can’t make the Global GoalsCast without you!


Michelle Cooprider: Our thanks to CBS News Digital and to Harman the official sound of Global GoalsCast. And later in this episode with the support of Undeniably Dairy — we will hear stories from the people who put real, fresh dairy foods on your plate.

CRE: Welcome back, I am Claudia Romo Edelman  

EL: And I am Edie Lush. Claudia, would you believe that thanks to Global GoalsCast I am now in a WhatsApp group with Zambian farmers? Anyone who is listening you can check them out in our twitter or Instagram feeds!

CRE: Knock yourself out!

EL: Exactly Mainner and Golden and Charity are all there!

EL: They are a big part of our conversation today about food – which is of course one of my favourite topics in the entire world.  There’s a ton of new thinking around food and how the growing and marketing of food can be harnessed for other economic goals.

CRE:  Famine and malnutrition remain a challenge in some places.  But the closer we get to wiping out famine the more the business of food is being used to achieve other goals.  So we want to tell you some stories.

EL: These are stories that illustrate a revolution in how food and food supply can spur economic development, educate young people, strengthen communities and include everyone in the disruptive benefits of new technology.

CRE: Sounds like a perfect fit to our mission of showing that We Are All Human, Edie. Look, by bringing in those Zambian farmers, including several women, we help to broaden the voices that you hear in the media.  We have to have more diversity of voices because the world is diverse.  And not only that but also it brings the idea  that you’ll hear this episode is about inclusion, about bringing folks at the end of the road because by bringing us all up the playing field for humanity goes up as well.

CRE: So why don’t we start in Zambia and your conversations about how a mobile app has turned subsistence farmers into e-commerce agricultural entrepreneurs.

EL: First of all I have to introduce you to Evin, who actually now lives in Ireland.  And he invented the coolest app.

Evin Joyce: Hi, my name is Evin Joyce and I worked for WFP as a program officer. I designed and managed a project, a project called MAANO virtual farmer’s market.

Edie : Tell me about that.  What gave you the idea for it?

Evin Joyce: I got a job with the World Food Program in Zambia in 2015.  One of the biggest challenges they’re facing, farmers, small holder rural farmers. Really smaller scale people right at the end of the road, if you like, the last mile, small scale farmers.

EL: I called up Evin a second time because I realized listening back to our first interview that I’d never asked him what he meant by a last mile farmer.

Evin Joyce:  A last mile farmer in Zambia is somebody who is more than 20 kilometers from a tarmacked road, definitely doesn’t have any automated transport. Uses a plow the same way as plows would have been used hundreds of years ago, drawn by two oxen, has no idea what the price in the market is. Either when it is time to buy seeds or inputs or when it’s time to sell their crop. Because they have no automated transport they have to rely on the one bandjaxed old lorry that’s owned by some businessman and the closest town to bounce down their their dusty, muddy road to them at harvest time and offer them a low ball price to buy their crops, to which they’ll have to accept because they have no other option.

EL: Mainner and golden are just these kind of last mile farmers. Golden told me that the World Food Program would come to buy his cowpeas for their school feeding program – so that’s one buyer for one crop. Mainner told me about growing enough to feed her family, and sometimes having a little over to sell to one of these bandjaxed old lorries (which actually kindof sounds like my high school car) So anyway they are at the mercy of someone else who has a truck and the knowledge of what their crops are going to bring in…and to use language I learned in Econ 101 they suffer from Information Asymmetry – that’s when one group knows more than another.  That was just part of the challenge these Zambian farmers confronted, as Mainner explained to me. I’m going to let her introduce herself.

Mainner Chabota: Okay, I am Mainner Chabota. I’m 42 years. I am married with four children. Three girls, one son.

Edie Lush: Mainner is a survivor and – just like you and me Claudia – as a mother she has a ferocious drive to look after her kids.  She lives in a two bedroom house, has an outside kitchen, her house sits at the end of a dirt road 15 km from the nearest town.  To feed her family when times were tough she traveled 1000 kilometers to the border with Congo to sell goats

And can you tell me what it was like before you had MAANO?

Mainner Chabota: Our life was not good. We plant our produce but we don’t have market. We were selling on using buckets and we travel from here to town to sell our produce.

Edie Lush: And how much would you sell for example, when you went to town before MAANO?

Mainner Chabota: Maybe five bags 250 kgs.  Because of transport  it was very expensive for my community to take the produce to town.

EL: Mainner has now become friends with one of the traders she met on the app – a young woman called Charity Mulengu. They are 224 kilometers apart but the app lets them do business more easily and more cheaply. 

Charity Mulengu I’m 32 years. I was married. husband died in a road accident.  I have two children.  I work in New Soweto market selling spices and legumes with my mother. With Maano we are buying direct from the farmer. It is better in the way that – I can communicate direct with the farmer.. We agree on the thing which I want. For example if I want five bags of cowpeas. I will communicate with the farmer. Then the farmer will advertise those five bags of cowpeas. When I send the money to the WFP, WFP send the money to the farmers. When the farmer can send those 5 bags to me. With Maano trading is better because I don’t waste much of my time to go to the farms and meet the farmers.

EL:   So that’s the power of MAANO — which means Intelligence in the local language, Tonga…Maano enabled buyers and sellers to communicate with each other and make deals…

Now I want to tell you how Maano got started. To do that lets hear again from Evin Joyce – one of the creators of the app for the World Food Program.

Evin Joyce:  So it was to start by getting 15 farmers that I knew from other projects working with the World Food Program in Zambia and bringing 50 farmers from the five traders from different market towns in Zambia together for one week in a classroom in the middle of nowhere, in an old ministry of Agricultural Training School.

Evin Joyce: We had had conversations, that involved the traders going to one corner of the room and writing on a flip chart, all of the reasons they did not trust farmers, that the farmers would hide things in the bags of food to make it weigh more and there will be dirty crops in there. They talk about currency fluctuations that the farmers don’t understand. And then to have the farmers up at the other end of the room saying all of the reasons that they didn’t trust the traders. That the traders have played with the weighing scales that they lie about the price.

We train them how to use key functions of a smartphone, the camera, whatsapp, Google maps and mobile money. Then we put the traders in the classroom in the middle of the training complex which is about the size of four or five football pitches and that was to simulate the traders sitting in the marketplace in a market town, and then the farmers were hiding behind trees and sheds across the rest of the training facility outside.  And then they advertise their produce to the traders in the whatsapp group that we’d created. Then afterwards, if the trader was interested, they’d say, yeah, how much are you selling for.

Evin Joyce:  And once a price was negotiated in the whatsapp chat and the farmer would share their location, the googled pin, and the trader, just like Uber or airbnb works, would send the money to my phone as the World Food Program. And we were the escrow and we held the money until afterwards. The trader used the Google pin to find the farmer, exchange the produce, check it, and only when the trader was happy with quality and quantity that it was as described in the photo, then we would release the money to the farmer and then you’ve got a sale.

Evin Joyce:  By the start of the summer of 2017 when the harvest was coming in, we were ready. And in that harvest season, we helped more than 1,200 farmers sell $50,000 worth of their crops through the system.  Its Ebay for Farmers.  But adapted to the very specific needs of rural smallscale farmers and the traders who want to buy from them. And those needs are that they are the end of the line, the last mile.

EL: So now for my other Zambian farmer friend. Golden Lwindii is a 46 year old farmer who lives about 70 kilometers away from Mainner.  He runs an agricultural goods shop in his village, a successful cooperative which has a seed bank for poor farmers. He’s got plenty to keep him busy.

Golden Lwindii: My name is Golden Lwindii.  I’m married, I’ve got six children, three girls and three boys.

Edie Lush: Oh my goodness. You have your hands full

Golden Lwindii: Yes.

Edie Lush: Tell me how many generations has your family been working your land?

Golden Lwindii: About four generations.

Edie Lush: What was the process like when, when Evin and the World Food Program first brought mono to you? What happened?

Golden Lwindii: The world food program used to come to our place, then we could put the crops together, a sort of aggregation. Then the world food program will come and get the crops. Then maybe after two weeks to one month, that’s when we can get our money.

Edie Lush: And tell me how that changed with MAANO?

Golden Lwindii: When Maano came, you know MAANO is a platform, a platform where buyers meet with the farmers so we have more than one buyer, so there is more chance of negotiating the price. And if you have more buyers, then it means that the price will go up. So this time, for example, if buyer A is offering me 2 Kuacha per kg of cowpeas, then I am free not to accept that price. Maybe there are other buyers offering it for 4 or 5 kuacha per kg of cowpeas. So it has increased our marketing system.

Edie Lush: And how much has it increased your income would you say?

Golden Lwindii: It has really increased our income, before MAANO came, we only used to sell two types of crops, that is maize and cowpeas.  But when MAANO came, it attracted a lot of buyers so those buyers had different requirements.  Some maybe want to buy cowpeas, others want to buy soya beans, others who’d want to buy maize and so forth. So it has improved our income in the sense that we have the market for every crop that we grow

Golden Lwindii: If you don’t have market for crops, there is no point in growing them, for example, a hundred bags of cowpeas. Where are you going to sell them? So before the coming of this market, people used only to grow before enough for consumption, but after market now people started to grow from, from four bags to about 60 bags from six to 100 bags from 100 bags to 200 bags. So people have got money now, more than ever before.

EL: That is a big deal. So the benefits of this virtual farmers’ market include more reliable price information, more potential buyers, lower transport costs and reliable payment.  And as Mainner told me, she sold more produce which brought her more income.

Mainner Chabota: MAANO increased my income, because I manage to sell more now than before MAANO. So MAANO now is able to buy even if I have a less than 50 kgs, MAANO buys, so Maano increased more. Maybe I can save 45 percent.

Edie Lush: And tell me what crops do you grow now?

Mainner Chabota: I grow, maize, cowpeas, soybeans, bambara nuts, grounds nuts, sweet potatoes, potatoes, eggplants. Before MAANO, we were growing only maize and small cowpeas, only to fed the family.

Golden Lwindii: Before this program came were, we didn’t have markets. So now you can come in my community, people are able now to send their children to school, people are living in the (inaudible) housese. 

Edie Lush: One part about this story that I love is that the WFP gave the farmers smartphones – for most of them this was their first encounter with such a device.  And beyond using maano for themselves, they also sell on behalf of others in their village that don’t have smartphones.  And they end up using them for all kinds of things.  Mainner used them to organise for a bunch of books to be sent to her from abroad so she could set up an after-school library for kids in her village.  And – they use them just like we all do – to communicate with our friends.

Golden Lwindii: Haha – Having a smartphone is a good thing I tell you. I didn’t know how good this is. You see, like on whatsapp uh, we have so many groups that we are discussing a lot of famine issues. Maybe if you are not on whatsapp, then you can on facebook, you are connected nearly to everyone.

Edie Lush: how does, um, MAANO help those people who don’t have a smartphone?

Golden Lwindii: I am an ambassador for MAANO.

Golden Lwindii: We put the crops together. I get the pictures, I advertise on the platform. Then after that they buyers will be able to see the crops.  They don’t need to travel to come here and see the crops. But you can send the pictures using the smartphone.

EL: Mainner and Golden are early adopters, power users and are now agricultural digital entrepreneurs. They help their neighbors sell cowpeas, or eggplants, or goats on Maano and they take a small percentage of the proceeds for their efforts.  They are getting paid to help others in their community.

Evin Joyce: But it isn’t every single person, every single farmer that’s going to be a, an e-commerce entrepreneur. But it is in that group, for example, the first farmers who, who, who were in the pilot in 2017, 20 percent of those farmers sold more produce than the other 80 percent. And in that, in that 20 percent, there were some who were real altruistic enablers of others like Mainner or Golden Lewindii who is already a small businessman but in a cooperative in his village, but who had a community seed bank that worked in the cooperative, in his village that helped the most vulnerable people in his community come, borrow seed, grow a bit of produce, bring it back, you know, they were on the margins. They’re very hard to reach, with any kind of a business, entrepreneurial adventure. But if you can build a reward system into the project as we did with Maano virtual farmer’s market, you can help include them. And then it’s the Mainner Chabotas and the Golden Lewindis, wh  have the capacity and are in these really rural areas. That’s, that can help reach the really vulnerable people.

EL: So Claudia the big idea here is as old as civilization itself.  By connecting to a larger world these farmers get the most for their skills and output.  This is only the second harvest with the market created by maano, but the changes are clear.

CRE: So Edie, this isn’t just about food to eliminate hunger. this is about the power of food to eliminate poverty and spur growth and development

EL: that is it in a zambia i think its a bambara nutshell..

CRE: Laugh.

CRE: So when we come back, we will hear about another program that offers food to encourage students to stay in school. And if you are a loyal listener that we know you are to the Global GoalsCast you know how important staying in school is… IRSE DE PINTA go out of school is bad story – I am not sure I want to hear your stories as a student Edie.

EL: I was a very good student and I never skipped school. But I’ve heard stories about you actually.

CRE: We’ll be back in a second.

SPONSOR BREAK – 2.5 min Dairy interview

EL: So from Zambia to Maine! Our sponsor – Undeniably Dairy – put me in touch with a rather remarkable dairy farmer in Maine.  Here’s my conversation with Jenni Tilton-Flood -mother, farmer, activist and community leader.

EL: So Jenni, the population of farmers, those who are involved in agriculture that feed the world is actually a very small percentage. Some statistics say in the United States, it’s less than two percent feeding everyone else. Tell me what it’s like being a dairy farmer?

Jenni Tilton-Flood (JTF) It used to be we lived in a world where everybody either knew a farmer or they had a really deep connection with where their food came from and from whom. In my state of Maine here in the US, it’s less than half percent of the population really spends their time putting food on the tables of our neighbours. 

JTF: Our cows eat very well. Some of them eat around 130 pounds of food a day and it’s not just anything we throw at them we don’t just see what’s cheap on the grocery store shelves. We make sure that nutritionists evaluate how they’re doing, how they’re feeling, how they look and make sure we’re giving them all the nutrition they need and we even have new recipes that they’ll give us to feed them and we utilize a lot of the food that we raise here on our own farm for them.

EL So on the Global GoalsCast, we are unapologetically pro female, pro girl, pro women. And I’m delighted to be speaking to a female dairy farmer. So tell me what your perspective on women in agriculture is personally. How do you find it?

JTF  My dad was the John Deere Salesperson and so I was always in the truck riding around a farm. So I’ve always been around the women of agriculture and it’s always been such a given for me, that women are the people who are driving the checkbook and driving the home and the tractors. They’re, they’re not just raising crops, they are raising our future and they’re doing so by putting food on the table, putting money in the bank and infusing their communities at large with the ability to grow, prosper and better themselves.

So whether you’re talking about the fact that a dairy farm is actually taking their manure and turning it into renewable energy sources and actually powering the homes and communities or you’re talking about the fact that not only did they provide the electricity for the lights at the local ball field, they probably sponsored the tee shirts that those kids are wearing in their community ball team.

We’re also a certified B Corp and that means that we’re committed to social and environmental excellence and we’re really working to benefit in a meaningful way, not just our business but the societies that we touch and the communities we’re involved with and the environment that we live in, work in and depend upon.


CRE: welcome back…later in the show we’re going to hear from another remarkable woman who also works in dairy!

Ok, Edie, we know from our work here at the Global GoalsCast that education is perhaps the most powerful force for long term change…

EL: We’ve been banging on about that in almost every single episode.  And of course in the short term that means keeping kids in school today. Which is how I got to talking with another world food program officer in Kenya about how food can help to do that.  

Lara Fossi:  My name is Lara Fossi. I’m the deputy country director for the World Food Program in Kenya. A lot of my work has been focused around the school meals program which is one of our flagship programs.

Lara Fossi: In 2009, the Kenya homegrown school meals program was launched.  Local farmers basically produce food that is then purchased for use in school meals. Which maximizes the benefits for students, farmers and the community.  And it also encourages dietary diversity and healthy eating habits.  School meals aims to provide children with a meal in schools so they don’t have to learn on an empty stomach. The meals promote enrolment. And they also help children stay in school so that they complete can their education.  By procuring locally from farmers, from the surrounding communities, school meals are also acting as a stimulus to the local economy.

Lara Fossi: And we actually started a local economy wide impact evaluation study earlier this year that is going to try to capture the full impacts that a program like school feeding can have on the local economy. We do know from cost benefit analysis that have been conducted in a sample of countries that every single dollar invested in school meals has an economic return of between $3 to $10 and this is from improved education and health in school children that eventually leads to increased productivity when they become working adults.

EL  Lara Fossi describes the power of these school meals in arid part of Kenya

Lara Fossi: In northern Kenya enrolment can be as low as 50 percent in primary school.  Many children simply don’t access a school education and many children in those communities don’t have a guaranteed meal every day during the lean season when people’s livelihoods are under stress.  In rural Kenya when communities and families see the smoke rising from the fires that are being stoked in the morning from the schools it is a real incentive for families to send their children to school.  That smoke is like a signal that there is a meal that will be prepared during that school day.

Lara Fossi: In July this year, WFP completed its handover of the school meals program to the government. So this is now a program that covers over 1.6 million children and it’s fully led, financed and implemented. So run now by Kenyans for Kenyans.

CRE So the World Food Program in 2017 implemented school meal programs across 71 countries that provided more or less 18 million children countries in 60 countries some meals

EL: that is a lot.  Another wfp official in Mali, summed up why feeding kids in school is so powerful….

Sylvia Caruso I’m Sylvia Caruso, Caruso, like the opera singer. I’m Italian, I’m from the south of Italy, from Naples, and I’ve been in posted here in Mali, in Bamako since July 2016 as the World Food Program representative.

Sylvia Caruso I talk about the importance of human capital. What does it mean? We, we try to support children because children are, of course, the future of those communities. We provide either food or cash to the committees in the schools for assuring one meal a day for children in primary schools. And It’s an implicit transfer to the families means the families don’t have to feed those children.  But it also helps the children to stay at school, focus better on their learning and make sure they attend the school throughout the years.

CRE: Edie, very very powerful stories about food as a crucial tool for achieving the global goals–we may sound like food groupies right? Like totally on WFP’s camp.  But the truth is that we’re really impressed by the results that organisations like the WFP gets.

EL:  This was a really remarkable episode for me to work on – in fact as you know this episode was supposed to be about something completely different.  We were supposed to talk about famine, about the hungriest people in the world.  And the story from Mainner, from Golden, listening to Charity just slightly took this episode over. So I’m afraid we’re going to have to make another episode. 

CRE  Does this mean we are committing on air to a second episode on famine and all the other areas of food. I mean I’m in – such a complex and rich issue with so many layers. Let’s do it.

EL:  Exactly.  So I think we should return to famine, improving harvest yield with better technology, all those issues in another episode.

CRE: So one issue that really jumped out at me in this episode, Edie is the power of technology to help people who really need the help. It is the same technology that you would use to get a cab in uber or a date in Tinder.  But used actually for good.

EL: So here is more on that from Evin Joyce, one of the inventors of that remarkable app who worked for the WFP in Zambia.

Evin Joyce  Overthe last few years, the last decade we’ll say, and every single sector of rich world economies transformed by digital technologies, financial technologies as well that are essentially enabling people to do old things in new ways with greater efficiency.  There’s a similar revolution of digital and financial technologies. It’s about to take place in African agriculture. It’s already started in some places – that will occur. It’s not in question. It’ll sure as night follows day.  It’s the same as the way ecommerce has shaken the retail industry. How airbnb has shocked the hotel industry, how Uber has challenged the taxi industry. The same thing will happen in Africa, African agriculture, But what we need to ask is how quickly it’ll happen and who it’ll benefit most. Because if the world is to achieve this zero hunger goal by 2030, then the answer to this, to these questions has to be that It’s going to happen as soon as possible on. It’s going to benefit those further behind first.

CRE: Equity and equality, food and nutrition are essential to provide a fair chance to everyone.  Without that, there will be consequences that will be very very expensive.  Healthcare is increasingly heavy when you don’t act on prevention.  When you don’t act on making sure that that 7 billion growing to nine will have access to food, one way or the other as a right.   Then you will have to pay for the consequences on healthcare and diseases and it will have an economic and a social consequence and a price for the world.  So it is important to look at nutrition.  Food is an essential right for everyone.   We are all human and we need to be nourished.


EL – And that’s what we heard in this episode.  Mainner with her increased income starts eating better, starts providing more varied food to her kids.  And she stops worrying about being hungry.  And that frees her to focus on other ways that she can improve her community.

CRE: So Edie, his is the end of our first season of The Global Goalscast.

EL:  We will return in january with season two. we already have plans to bring you stories about climate change, diversity and inclusion and, as we just told you, fighting famine in some of the most troubled places on earth

CRE: We do want to thank every in our network – all the UN agencies and NGO’s who have connected us to every corner of the world – Edie we have been in every continent – in more than a dozen countries – in order to find the stories that make this podcast.

EL:  I have learned an enormous amount this year.  

CRE: Oh my god me too.

EL: Remember Brenda from our first episode Claudia? She crossed the Rio Grande, I’m not going to say the Rio Grande River. She crossed the Rio Grande and became a Google Software engineer.  The Swans, who walked to the south pole, relying soley on renewable energy. 

CRE: 60 days, 600 miles, only on renewable energy.

EL: I really wish I had so many pennies for every time that I heard you say that.  The Palau pledge people, who did that incredible program now when you enter Palau the country you get a stamp in your passport that says you will leave that country better than you found it. They won an award – just after we made that podcast about them.

CRE Right! And just like the Palau pledge, we will make the Global GoalsCast pledge. We’ll commit to having a season two where we will bring you more stories, more people, more voices of the champions that are making a difference. Allowing you to know that you can do your part as well.  And that we together can make the difference.

EL: And before we go let’s hear some more from the dairy folks – this time I spoke with Emily Hunt Turner, a former attorney who runs an restaurant in Minneapolis called All Square selling something I actually can’t say without my mouth watering .. grilled cheese sandwiches. there’s something very special about this particular restaurant .

Emily Hunt Turner (EHT) All square is a civil rights social enterprise in Minneapolis, Minnesota and we are centered on a craft grilled cheese restaurant and professional development institute. And we invest in the minds and lives of those who have been impacted by the criminal justice system.

Our Name and our brand is sort of a double entendre. Our grilled cheese are square and we’re also making a positive statement I think to the world that once those, who have paid their debts to society are all square as well.

Grilled cheese has had this really equalizing, warm factor in our enterprise.  Cheese is – a bit of an adhesive and I think that that’s something that we really like.  Let’s talk about the issue, let’s do something on the ground to provide a solution to it, but let’s also, you know, invite people in to break bread and, share a little warmth.

EL So tell me about some of the folks that you work with

EHT We have 12 fellows traveling through our 12 month curriculum.  I think we have an incredible range of humans with all varieties of backgrounds, expertise. some have college degrees, some don’t.  Some had been out of prison for two months, some have been out for years. The grilled cheese restaurant is a way to put money in their pockets, but investing in their professional endeavors as well through the institute and getting to know who they are and what they want to do with their lives. We have two fellows who were studying for the LSAT to get into law school, one who’s applying for a paralegal associate and the rest of them are developing small business plans.  The people that are involved in this are really what’s making it the most rewarding for me and I think all of our leadership.

EL: What’s the most surprising part of your work?

EHT:  The issue that we’re dealing with – the reality is once you have even an arrest that never resulted in a conviction, let alone a conviction on your record, the dreams are really foreclosed.   The intention and the hope goes directly to – once I get out of prison or once I’ve had my record resolved, how can survive? How can I find a place to live and find a job and will that even be possible? I don’t know that it will. And dreams are not really on the table. And that’s, that is incredibly disheartening in my mind. And it’s also not okay.

EL So I want to bring it back finally to grilled cheese. How did you decide on grilled cheese?

EHT: With this diversity of perspective, with this diversity of viewpoint and a lot of the polarizing rhetoric that we’re seeing in the world today. Grilled cheese just had a really unifying dimension to it that felt warm. It felt safe and it felt like community.


EL: This was the first series of the Global GoalsCast and I’m Edie Lush.

CRE: And I’m Claudia Romo Edelman Thank you so much for having been with us this year. See you next year.

Michelle:  Thank you to our partners….

This episode wouldn’t have been possible without Keith Reynolds, Founder & President of Spoke Media who lent us his ear.

Intro:  00:02 My friend who was my best friend in the village who failed to go to secondary school because he parents couldn’t raise $6 and I was privileged to go, but she was brighter than me, is still where I left her. I always say, please present me, the young girl who decided to leave school at 10 in order to be married at 12. Even I was surprised when we ran these numbers that it shows that almost 90 percent of the people remaining in extreme poverty will be in Subsaharan Africa by 2050. In today’s world, you cannot reduce poverty if you don’t reduce conflict. You cannot reduce hunger if you don’t deal with conflict and war.

Claudia:  00:49   This is the Global GoalsCast.

Edie:  00:51 The podcast that asks if we can change the world.

Claudia: 00:55  This episodes, are we losing ground in the fight against extreme poverty?

Edie: 00:59  Right after this.

CREDITS: 01:02 This episode was made possible thanks to the support of Cisco and thank you to HARMAN the official sound of global goals cast.

Edie: 01:12 Welcome back. I’m Edie Lush.

Claudia: 01:14 And I’m Claudia Romo Edelman. This episode, we’ll look at the most fundamental of all the sustainable development goals, Goal number one.

Edie: 01:22 That’s right. The goal of eliminating extreme poverty by 2030. So Claudia, did they make it goal one because it was the most important of the 17 sustainable development goals?

Claudia:  01:34  Yes. All the other goals are based on ending poverty and many are also essential to ending poverty, educating girls, curbing population growth, curtailing climate change, resolving conflicts.

Edie:  01:48 And we know the world has made extraordinary progress in eradicating extreme poverty in Asia. A billion people have been lifted up,

Claudia: 01:56  But now bill gates is sounding an alarm.

Bill Gates: 01:59 Even I was surprised when we ran these numbers that it shows that almost 90 percent of the people remaining an extreme poverty will be in Subsaharan Africa by 2050, and so what this means is that this poverty is going to be a feature of life in a few places and these are places where there are the fewest opportunities. In some of these places, there’s violence, a lack of stability. These are places where climate change will make these subsistence farmers lives more difficult. Also, these are often places where the governance is not providing the primary health care or education even at a basic level and every one of these places are exactly where we’re experiencing rapid population growth. The geography of births in the world is changing and this is something that’s really fascinating. Over the rest of the century, the number of babies born stays the same. We really reached peak baby. We can seethat the places that they’re born are changing.

Claudia: 03:08 That was Bill Gates at his Goalkeepers event during the global goals week in New York.

Edie: 03:13 That was very well done for getting all those words out.

Claudia: 03:16 I know, concentrated poverty in Africa. That’s what bill and Melinda Gates warned about in the report from their foundation. Later in this episode, we will hear from an expert who helped prepare that report.

Edie: 03:30 First, let’s talk about the solutions. Gates stressed to us in the audience that the situation is far from hopeless. He was calling the world’s attention to present trends so the world would change those trends.

Claudia:03:43  China and India have beaten extreme poverty and they are already success stories in Africa,

Edie:  03:48 And you know how much we love success stories,

Claudia: 03:51  We do.

Edie:   03:51 …Here on the global GoalsCast. The world needs to take what we already know works well and do much, much more of it. That was the message from Bill and Melinda Gates. Invest in people and what they call human capital.

Claudia: 04:05 So Edie, why don’t we start with your conversation with an African leader that you caught up at the United Nations. I have to admit, she’s one of my favorites.

Dr. Joyce Banda:04:13  My name is Joyce Banda. I am former president of the Republic of Malawi, but I’ve been in the women’s Movement for 35 years so people know me for the work that I’ve done in the Joyce Banda Foundation. I am convinced that Africa will change for the better and I’ll caution that we have done well. We’ve done our best. We’ve been leaders even before colonization and we’re leaders today and we are participating and we have had 4 female presidents there other continents that are still trying to get one woman to statehouse that I know.

Edie:  04:50 Still waiting here in the U. S. I also know from the work I’ve done on the Global GoalsCast how important it is to keep girls in secondary education so that they can make the right choice at age 15. Here, the goalkeepers event, president macron was blunt about this. Let me play it.

Pres Macron: 05:07  always say, please present me with a lady who decided, being perfectly educated, to have seven, eight, nine children, please present me the young girl who decided to leave school at 10 in order to be married at 12 and this is not teaching African people from New York. This is a pure bullshit to say that.

Edie: 05:36   So tell me what you think we can do to support girls with that really important stage.

Dr. Joyce Banda:  05:40 Now I’m glad you asked that question. The Joyce Banda Foundation runs to secondary schools and I hope that one day you can have a chance to visit. One of them is up and the other one is rural based in the community because my friend was my best friend in village who failed to go to secondary school because her parents couldn’t raise $6 and I was privileged to go, but she was brighter than me, is still where I left her. So Christa lost out and I went all the way to state house and I think that is the greatest injustice to the 130 million girls that are not going to school. So I engaged Christa I even brought her to America yet we even met together Gordon Brown in 2018. So she’s my fellow champion in the village. She’s the one who goes looking for children, girls that we can send to our school in the village, but the village, we target girls and boys that are from child headed households. So what needs to happen now is that most countries they have free primary education, but secondary education is not free.Our school is one of the only three free secondary schools in Malawi. So what do we need to do is to find a way of providing free education to these girls when they get. We live in years old now, they are going to seconrdary school because, when a girl stays four more years in secondary school in Africa in the village, it’s not only about her future, it’s about her health as well because then we will hopefully we avoid getting married at 11, at 12 and in Malawi I’ve seen a nine year old bride. But when she gets older school they need just four more years and do your research and mine have taught us that most of those that are dying giving birth are between 12 and 19, so secondary education to agree with what you’ve just said is critical in many ways, but it is important for us to find a way because there are many countries that have decided. Ghana has just introduced free secondary education, but you can see the challenges now.

Edie: 07:46 Dr Joyce Banda, the former president of Malawi a really inspiring person and I absolutely do hope to visit her schools.

Claudia:  07:53  Yes, I’m sure everybody would like to hear more and maybe Edie, maybe in season two we will have some funding to send you to Malawi. Oh my God and Michelle too, she’s waving. Okay. Together with our producer. But for now, we learned so much during these, what we called the global goals week that happens at the framework of the United Nations General Assembly. And also from the Goalkeepers, from the people that came from all over the world to this coast, precisely for the advancement of the sustainable development goals this September.

Edie: 08:26 We’ve said so often, Claudia, that educating girls is the single most powerful tool for ending extreme poverty and improving society’s.

Claudia: 08:33 Yes, and part of what Bill Gates is saying is that the challenge in parts of Africa is deep and complicated, made more so because the population is growing fastest in some of the poorest and most distressed places, so ending strife goes hand in hand with education, improving agriculture and curbing climate change as well as population growth.

Claudia: 08:55  Edie, you spoke to a child soldier from Sierra Leone, right?

Edie: 08:59 Yes. A child soldier who was rescued by some women from UNICEF and is now an education activist with a vision.

MohammedSidibay:   09:05 My name is Mohammed Sidibay. I was born in a country that was engaged in a 10 year war in which I got involved in it when I was five. The rebels came to my village and played God on the lives of my entire family and they took me and so I became a child soldier from when I was five until I was 10. Like most wars, the war in Sierra Leone ended and I found myself in the streets of Freetown not knowing how to read or write and being homeless and orphaned, under 10 years old. That’s not a situation I should have been in.

Edie: 09:42  And so what did you do? What happened?

MohammedSidibay: 09:45  Thanks to UNICEF who helped to get me in school and then thanks to organizations like I Earn, the My Hero Project, I serendipitously came to the United States 4 years after I got out of the war. I was 14 at the time and I came to speak at a conference on the topic Children caught in crossfire and it was supposed to last a week and that week is morphed into 11 years now. Before coming to America, I thought America was the greatest country in the world, in the Sierra Leone was a country of violence and I never wanted to go back because he has done nothing but take away everything from me and has never given me anything. I quickly realized that was wrong on both fronts. That Sierra Leone it’s not a country of violence, is violence with an aspect of my culture too. I was introduced to and America was not that. It’s not the perfect society I imagined it to be. Then it’s a country of paradox in so many ways.

Edie:  10:47 That’s putting it lightly, I would say. You credit UNICEF and some education for what saved you or is that the right way to put it? Tell me a little more about that journey. What was it specifically about that education that opens your world view?

Mohammed Sidibay:  11:04 When you were a kid, there are, people take it for granted in the West, the ability to learn how to read and write, the ability to see your name and recognize that it’s your name. It gives you ownership. And so by fighting to ensure that I was enrolled in school so that I learned how to spell and how to read and write, I gain ownership of who I was. Now granted to the circumstances and the situation we’re not ideal, but I think that was like the first step.

Edie: 11:39 When I interview you in a year, what’s going to be an incremental bit of success that we can talk about?

MohammedSidibay: 11:46  My hope is right now there’s a ban on girls education. Pregnant girls abuse specific. Pregnant girls are being prevented from to school with a government that says universal education for all. In a year, I hope that that will not be the case, that. That there will be a band that this government will realize on their president says, this is not right and we’re going to reverse that ban. Furthermore, there are a lot of new powerful positions have been created with the leaders in the administration of inclusion for young people, but what I’m seeing is these powerful positions have been created, have been mainly filled by boys country that has more women than men, should not be this way. So in a year term, I hope the presidents will continue to create more opportunities and more high profile jobs and make sure that women are the one filling these roles because to me that’s important because most of 99.9% of the people have had the biggest impact in my life, who have helped shaped my life and my vision of the world and who’ve ensured that I am where I am today and been women and I think it’s time that we give credit where credit’s due.

Claudia:  12:59 Goof more Mohammed Sidibay of Sierra Leone.

Edie:  13:01 It was very moving to hear his story and to recognize that both he and Joyce Banda, we’re telling personal stories that represent a broad path forward. For Africa to breakout of the trends Bill Gates is warning about.

Claudia: 13:15 Yes, exactly. You spoke to one of our partners who had a very important perspective of how complex eradicating poverty is now and why the path leads straight through one other of the global goals.

Edie: 13:29  His name is Neil Keny-Guyer, and he’s the CEO of Mercy Corps. Now I know that you’re most concerned about goal number 16. For those who don’t know, it tells what it is and why.

Neil KG:   13:41  Goal Sixteen essentially relates to peace, justice, and good sound institutions. The reason that we think that goal 16 is so important, in fact, the most critical goal is because in today’s world you cannot reduce poverty if you don’t reduce conflict. You cannot reduce hunger if you don’t deal with conflict and war. If you know promote peace, you cannot continue to make progress around health and education, and the reason is is because poverty, poor health, poor education outcomes, unclean water, hunger, they’re all clustering in a set of fragile states, so that’s why it is absolutely essential that we make progress in addressing some of the fundamental conflicts around the world. Otherwise, we will not achieve the aspiration of the sustainable development goals.

Edie:   14:36  Tell me what you’re seeing, the kind of work that you do with fragile communities, with people who are really under pressure.

Neil KG: 14:42 We have to recognize, particularly in these fragile states, these places were poor governance, conflict and extreme poverty all collide and keep people trapped, keep people from moving forward that the interventions that worked in more stable places where we’ve seen such dramatic results from China to India to Indonesia and on and on and the results have been spectacular. Those same formulas don’t work in fragile states and of course there are no silver bullets. There is no shiny solution is, there’s no great innovation or app that’s going to come in and turn around these environments. Investing in women, gender equality is going to be critical and essential part of it, but at Mercy Corps, we talk about the three Gs as the way forward is in a way way to think about it. First G is grievance and we’ve in many of these places, you have to address underlying deep seeded historic grievances that are often aggravated and accelerated by, you know, modern political leaders. But if you don’t address the underlying grievance, if you don’t help people see a common future together, then you won’t make progress. Secondly is governance. I think the development community has been weak on governance and I don’t mean the functioning of government. What I mean is the relationship between government, private sector and some form of community or civil society, but in whatever we do, whatever our interventions, whether it’s education, whether it’s health, we have to do that in a way that strengthens systems of governance. And then the third G is growth is economic growth because in these fragile places, you cannot sustain the gains in health, education and social welfare if you don’t simultaneously have inclusive enough growth. That is absolutely essential as we see everywhere. So we think when you can put the three G’s together, you can actually begin to turn around fragile states, put them on a more stable, potentially more peaceful and prosperous pathway forward.

Edie:  16:49 That’s Neil Keny-Guyer of mercy corps with their three G’s of sustainable development. Heal grievances, improve governance and drive growth. Here at global goalsCast, we add a fourth G, gender equity.

Claudia: 17:02 You said it, Edie, we need all four G’s to achieve the SDGs.

Edie: 17:06 You do sound like a cheerleader a little bit.

Claudia:  17:09 I always wanted to be one.

Edie: 17:10  Did you?

Claudia:  17:10  Yeah but in Mexico we don’t have those. We don’t have American football, so…

Edie:  17:15  And when we come back we will speak with two experts about population growth in Africa, how some countries have slowed population growth and others have not, and why this matters so much.

Claudia:  17:30 Listeners will know from our last episode about Cisco’s initiative with Middle School kids called the global problem solvers. That is only as small part of what they do to use technology and expertise to make a positive impact on people, society and the planet and also to create an inclusive digital economy. Edie caught up with Amanda Cumberland at the World Economic Forum Sustainable Development Impact Summit during the UNGA. Amanda works at Cisco Corporate Affairs on a strategic insights team that does research analytics and business intelligence.

Edie: 18:05 You’ve got some new research that you’ve done on skilling, on the world of work, where our children are going to be when they enter the work field. Tell me, give me the broad brushes, first of all.

CISCO: 18:14  So recently we did a research study partnering with Oxford Economics and we wanted to really understand the impact of technology on the labor market, the future labor market and that includes jobs of course and skills of the future and we did this sort of complex modeling looking at what jobs are going to change over the next 10 years and which jobs are going to be more at risk for displacement. We know technology creates jobs as well and so the more we can anticipate that and understand, you know, the changes that are happening and the skills that are really needed for the future, the more we can help prepare the future workforce. We looked at, okay, what are those skills that are going to be less required and so things that are a little bit more routine in terms of communication, administration and things, obviously are going to be a little bit easier to automate and skills that require, you know, critical thinking and creativity and design, you know, you’re all going to be less likely to be automated. I think we all talk about the technology skills and how important those are and how fast everything is changing, but what was really interesting also is on top of that, we found there’s a 32 percent skills gap in human skills will be called human skills over the next 10 years.

Edie:  19:17 What’s a human skill?

CISCO: 19:19 That’s a great question. So things like negotiation and persuasion, social perceptiveness instructing, you know, teaching those things are really going to be more important given a lot of the complexity that’s happening with the new digital world, but also all the data, right? All the complicated changes that are happening, but it’s also less likely to be automated. It’s more human friendly. We also looked at for specific jobs that may be displaced for a specific person and a specific role, what are the probable jobs they could move into. So what does that mean? What kind of skills would they have? The debt could be translated into other type jobs. So just looking at data around the historical patterns. When jobs that required those skills were displaced, what kind of jobs do they move into? And then what are those gaps they need to fill so that it can be very specific also.

Claudia: 20:10 We’re back. Let’s go straight to your conversation with Dr Joannie Bewa, whom you and I met through the gates foundation. She’s a physician from Benin who told us about what made her become a doctor.

Joannie Bewa: 20:25 That’s a very sad story of of best friend of mine who had to 12 years old had this unwanted pregnancy. She didn’t know who to talk to, how to address it and she just did an abortion and unfortunately she never came back to school and she died. And from this moment I realized that there is like a gap because the school does not teach you anything about that. It does not cover sexuality at all. And then I decided to begin to work as an activist and actually to become a physician also to address the lack of access to health services.

Edie: 21:03  Tell me about that. Tell me what the challenges are that you face in helping young women get reproductive health Services

Joannie Bewa: 21:11 Sexuality is taboo in some areas in the world and sometime it may not be easy to talk about this issue or their can be like some hesitation for young girls actually to discuss about it even though they need this information. But a good thing when you try to find the funniest way or the most relaxed way to address this issue, you realize that they asked questions and they want more. They even more than what you anticipated. An example I used to do, demonstration of how to use male condoms, but also female condom and you can see the energy in the room of women’s and girls and boy who wants to really know how to use that because school actually doesn’t address that issue.

Edie:  22:00 It’s totally obvious to me that youth and especially young women have an incredibly important role to play at this and I love your idea about bringing humor to it. Tell me a little bit more. What did you do? Were you putting them on cucumbers? What were you doing?

Joannie Bewa: 22:15 Well, the thing is I just start like as if I want to talk about a serious issue and so people are very like attentive and I’m like, okay, so we are going to talk about how to use female condoms, who wants to show me? And everyone is just hesitant. I’m like, okay. Then I will show you and then I just remove it and I say, okay, this is how to use it, This is what not to do. And they realize they, especially for female condom or maybe even for oral contraception, you realize that they don’t know body image, healthy relationship is also the kind of thing we discuss about. So it’s a wide range of workshop or community dialogue of using soccer or social media. Try to use every strategy to bring young people together.

Claudia:  23:02 This brings us to our discussion about the giant elephant in the room. One of the keys to keep progress going forwardis to slow down the rapid rates of population growth in parts of Africa. This is not about population control.

Edie:  23:15 This is about human rights. This is about giving women in places like northern Nigeria, Democratic Republic of Congo, and the other eight countries where population is projected to double by 2050. The right to decide when they get married and how many children they want to have. This was explained to me by Alex Ezeh, an African demographer who wrote a section of the gates report on population in Africa.

Alex Ezeh: 23:41 Much of the bug that is driving the growth in the population actually is one third. These are women who have exceeded that number of children. They would have wanted if they have control over their reproduction. The women who have decided I don’t want to have anymore children. They want to delay your next book by at least two years, but they are not using any effective methods of contraception. And because of this they end up with unwanted fertility, which can be mistimed or not wanted at all. And if you can actually help this women to manage that, you can reduce fertility rates and population growth rates ultimately by as much as 30 to 40 percent in many of these countries. And the second thing that is driving this rapid growth is the fact that for many of these countries, the age at first marriage, which actually is a proxy for age at first birth, it’s very low, and by simply changing that by a small margin, by having policies that prohibits child marriage, that’s marriage to children under 18 years of age, we can significantly reduce the rate of growth of the population in many of these countries. If we invest in female education and we help girls go to school and finish primary, go to secondary, we know that many of these women with secondary education at least make different decisions with respect to child bearing, with respect to the investments they make in their children, with respect to other opportunities they may have in life. And each of these opportunities that such education grants women also leads over time and over and over again to much reduced rates of population growth. Because those women have fewer children than those who’ve never gone to school. They are more likely to use family planning than those who’ve never gone to school. They are more likely to invest in their children and the children are more likely to go to school, so you have a multiplier effect of such decisions and investments.

Claudia:  25:54   So we’re back to where we started, not only with the Joyce Banda in this episode, but in one of the very first episodes of season one, educating girls.

Edie:   26:04 Does that seem like a long time ago?

Claudia:  26:06  I know

Edie: 26:10 There’s a lot we haven’t mentioned in this episode that helps lift people out of extreme poverty. Investing in human capital also means investing in health, in agricultural innovation, which can turn farmers from subsistence farming to selling to the market, which we’re going to cover in our next episode on food security.

Claudia:26:30 So this brings us to the end of the program. This is where we’re going to wrap the issue and I have to say for me these was really an exciting time. Normally you have the development bubble, the people that work in my world talking to ourselves increasingly loud. That’s pretty much what you know, like what it is and we are focused on the problems and the solutions and so one. But at the end of the day, what I love this at this time around, it felt like the bubble busted and that they were by far more people interested. I feel the traction coming in from the gates foundation doing the GoalKeepers and being extremely cool and with music and young people, the economic forum devoted an entire summit in New York to talk about the Sustainable Development Goals. And us, we hosted a party to kick off the United Nations.

Edie:  27:21   That was fun!

Claudia:27:21 Even we had a name Edie, the global goals week. That’s amazing and you can only imagine that if we can keep going and cascading, the energy can keep on going and cascading into other parts of the world.

Edie: 27:33  What I also notice was not only what you said there, young people, solutions, not just problems, but also how all these things are connected and what it seems to me is that these goals and the way to think of them is that they’re like a circle rather than a kind of pyramid of some being more important than the other. They’re complicated. They’re global and they’re all interconnected.

Claudia:  27:57 Indeed and what you just said about the young people and Incentives and awards. And we ourselves, we created in our award and we gave it to people like the champion of humanity and I love that actually that the reports of the gates foundation and the goals keepers had awardees and We’re shining a light. Yes, and the issues that we have to pay attention, but also on the things that are working on the things that we can pay attention to scale them up because they are solutions to bigger problems if we scale them up.

Edie: 28:27 And it brings us to this issue about human capital. So building roads, investing in capital capital expenditure. It’s easy, it’s fast, you spend money and you see a result. Investing in human capital takes longer. It takes patience, but what we’ve learned from China and India is that if you do invest that money, you see the results.

Claudia: 28:50 So we want to leave you with a sense of progress. We want to leave you with a sense of interconnectedness and investment on human capital.

Edie:                                    28:58                   So if you take the goal, here are facts and actions that we’re going to give you back. Fact Number one, since 2000 more than a billion people have lifted themselves out of poverty.

Edie 29:09 That number is so huge. It’s almost impossible to appreciate what an enormous achievement it is.

Claudia: 29:14 Fact, number two, extreme poverty is becoming heavily concentrated in some regions in sub Saharan African countries in particular. By 2050, that is where 86 percent of the extremely poor people living on less than $1.9 a day are projected to leave fact.

Edie: 29:32 Fact Number three, for most African countries, the outlook is positive. For example, Ethiopia once known principally in the West for famine will likely almost eliminate extreme poverty by 2050. That brings us to our actions. These are taken from be the change. Number one, clean out your pantry, fill a box with nonperishable foods and donate it to a food bank. I actually did this this morning before I got on the plane to come here and I know that in London cans of tomatoes and fruits are always welcome,

Claudia: 30:03 Actual number two do something good. Volunteer, or actually sponsor a child so that they can have access to food or education or health. Our producer, Michelle does that for our boy in Malawi. There are many organizations out there that I have an option for you to engage. Save the Children World Vision, UNICEF, World Food Program. Just go and do something

Edie:  30:26 And action number three on your birthday, offer the option to donate money to your chosen charity in replacement of a gift. I think you did this the other day? You can even do this on your facebook page

Claudia: 30:37  And those things do matter. Now, for the second part of Edie’s interview with Amanda Cumberland from our response or Cisco. Stay tuned because you want to hear about what Cisco is doing. I tell you. In 2016, Cisco setup an ambitious goal to positively impact 1 billion people with digital solutions by 2025.

Edie:  31:00  Tell me about the technologies skills that people will need. I talk with my kids all the time about why are you doing more coding in school, but then I hear teachers telling me what all. It’s not just coding that they need, what does schools need to be doing?

Amanda CISCO: 31:12  In our city, We looked at things based on her own database and so besides programming, application development, I think are big skills now currently. And in the future, but also skills around security, cyber security, and that’s a real big growing area that we’ve seen with other research actually to. It’s critical because of all the connections that are happening, so how do you secure the networks? How do you secure all this data that’s happening? Also because of data you can imagine data analytics, data scientists are more and more in demand. It’s one of my passions, something that I’ve always been interested in and done, but now it’s even more pervasive and needed across industries, across jobs.

Edie:  31:51 Analyzing all the data that comes in

Amanda CISCO:  31:53 And it’s for anyone almost, its good for them to have some data skills even if they’re not sort of phd, you know, modeling type data, analytics people. There’s so much data that just understanding how to navigate data, understand data.

Edie:  32:05 And I know that just goes, there’s a lot of work, not just with the middle school kids on the Global Problem Solvers, but with high schools, with colleges, community colleges. Tell me what that is and the effect you’ve seen on those people who’ve gone through it.

Amanda CISCO:  32:18  We have a huge program coming out with King Academy Program. It’s actually 20 years old now. [Ah, Congratulations!] Yes, and we have over a million students a year. I take horses and that’s lucky like you mentioned through high schools, through community colleges or universities around the world and we were very proud of that program. We developed a curriculum, we give it away for free to the schools to use and it is teaching technology skills, networking skills, which are also, networking is the foundation for digital. Without the network, none of the connections, IOT, you name it can happen. So looking at only networking, we have courses around IOT, also security that we talked about and then maybe an entrepreneurship skills and things like that. So it’s great That’s if you’re in one of the schools are set up for Networking Academy program, you know, we, you can go to and see more about like what if there’s a school nearby that’s actually teaching our curriculum. But we’re really excited about it and what we’ve noticed is in terms of outcomes, you know, that students that take our courses, at least what we call our CCNA program, which is teaching networking skills that’s aligned to with our industry certification or CCNA certifications and those students who have at least taken all those four courses and also some of the students that have taken just one or two of those CCNA courses, We found that um, one point 6 million students over the past, since 2005 really have said that they’ve gotten a brand new job because of taking courses. So they attributed it to our courses. Yeah. So we’re, and again, that’s around the world and over 170 countries. So.

Edie: 33:47 Great. Well thank you very much for stopping. I know you’ve got a plane to catch. We’ll let you go get it. Um, but thank you very much for joining us and we will see you again. Thanks for joining us. Do you follow us on facebook, instagram, twitter, subscribe to our podcasts. Give us five stars. We’ll love you forever. This is Ed Lush

Claudia: 34:10  And I am Claudia Romo Edelman

Edie 34:11 And this is the Global GoalsCast

Claudia: 34:13 Thank you for being with us. Bye

Credits:   34:19 Thank you to our partners at the United Nations, Unicef, World Food Program, UN Foundation, SDG action campaign of the Office of the UN Development Program, International Office for Migration, International Development Law Organization, malaria no more, rollback malaria, project everyone and public foundation. We are also grateful for the support of Hub culture, SAS, cultural intelligence, Freud’s communication, Saatchi and Saatchi action button, and of course CBS news. Digital