To Stop Corona, Listen


The pandemic can be stopped. We already know how, explain two of the world’s top public health doctors in this episode on lessons from the pandemic. The solution involves truly understanding how the disease was stopped in the early countries that confronted it. “We’re going back and relearning a lot of the lessons from China,” said Dr. Bruce Aylward, who led the World Health Organization’s mission to China and is working to share those findings in Italy and other countries. Dr. Aylward says leader’s in the West were slow to listen to the lessons. “We are all human at a certain level and we tend to cherry pick that part of the information, which we find most reassuring,” he observed. Dr. David Nabarro, WHO Director-General’s Special Envoy on COVID-19, said that quick action will contain the virus. “If when a case arrives, you prevaricate, you’re half-hearted, you pretend it’s not real and you wait perhaps two, three, four weeks before you start to implement measures of any kind,” he warned, “what happens is that it basically doubles in scale every two to three days.”

Following the lead of Drs. Nabarro and Aylward, Co hosts Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman share their plan to offer regular episodes of the podcast that detail success in attacking the pandemic and share them widely while the lessons can make a difference.

Featured guests

Dr. David Nabarro

David Nabarro is the Co-Director of the Imperial College Institute of Global Health Innovation at the Imperial College London and supports systems leadership for sustainable development through his Switzerland based social enterprise 4SD. From March 2020, David is appointed Special Envoy of WHO Director General on COVID-19. He secured his medical qualification in 1974 and has worked in over 50 countries – in communities and hospitals, governments, civil society, universities, and in United Nations (UN) programs.  David worked for the British government in the 1990s as head of Health and Population and director for Human Development in the UK Department for International Development. From 1999 to 2017 he held leadership roles in the UN system on disease outbreaks and health issues, food insecurity and nutrition, climate change and sustainable development. In October 2018, David received the World Food Prize together with Lawrence Haddad for their leadership in raising the profile and building coalitions for action for better nutrition across the Sustainable Development Goals.

Dr. Bruce Aylward

Dr Bruce Aylward is the Senior Advisor to the Director General, World Health Organization (WHO). Since September 2017, Dr Aylward has been serving as Senior Advisor to the WHO Director General and Director of the WHO Transformation. In this capacity he leads the team that is responsible for the design, coordination and implementation of a comprehensive reform of the organization, across its 7 Major Offices, 3 levels and more than 145 country offices, to deliver its new strategic plan and the health-related Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs). From August 2016 through August 2017, Dr Aylward worked with the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), initially leading the inter-agency process that resulted in the first-ever system-wide activation procedures for major infectious disease emergencies, then establishing and leading OCHA’s Change Management Unit. In that role he took forward the recommendations of a wide-ranging functional review of OCHA to optimize its role, functions, structure and processes for the challenges of the 21st century. 

Special thank you to:


Coming soon!

Your City Can Help Save the World


Measured against history the change has come swiftly. After living in the countryside for thousands of years, humanity is in the midst of an epic move to the city. Co-host Edie Lush points out in this episode that as recently as 200 years ago little more than one person in ten lived in a city. Today, the UN estimates just over half of us live in cities. By 2050 that will be two thirds.

Population is growing and urbanizing at the same time, says Renata Rubian, Adviser on Inclusive Sustainable Growth at the United Nations Development Program. Which is why the Global Goals include a goal explicitly focused on creating Sustainable Cities, SDG # 11. 

Co-host Claudia Romo Edelman notes that other goals, like eradicating poverty or hunger, are easier to understand even if they are challenging to achieve. But given how much of the world will be living in cities we can not hope to achieve the global goals – from climate to equity, from good health to decent jobs and living standards – without creating sustainable cities.  

So what is a sustainable city and how do we create them, Edie Lush asks.

She seeks out two well-know experts on sustainability and urban design, William McDonough and Samir Bantal. McDonough, author and architect, explains his concept of cradle to cradle production, designing products so there components can be reused and there is in a perfect case no waste. This concept can apply not only to products but to cities, which can imitate the organic patterns of the natural world.

The architect Samir Bantal emphasizes the importance of countryside. Countryside, The Future is the name of a new exhibition he and his famous colleague, Rem Koolhaas, the architect and urban designer, have just opened at the Guggenheim Museum in New York City. The exhibition calls it  “absurd” that most of the world’s people are being concentrated in a tiny corner of the planet’s space. “Cities only represent 2% of the Earth’s surface, which means that the other 98%, perhaps, is ignored,” Bantal says. “There’s a kind of single focus on urbanism and on cities while actually the countryside is perhaps, the most interesting area to investigate right now, not only as architects, but as humanity.”

Facts and Actions are presented by Stan Stalnaker, Founder and Chief Strategy Officer of Hub Culture, the social network which operates the digital currency Ven. He invited listeners to join Hub Culture’s Emerald City project, which is building a virtual city and generating revenue to sustain Amazon Rain Forests.

Music in this episode includes tracks from a new album ‘100% HER’ which is now live on the Universal Production Music website and Spotify. One of the artists – Kate Lloyd shares what it’s like to be featured on an album where every track was composed, mixed and mastered by women.

The sponsor of this episode is Brevet Capital Management, which identifies 100% responsible investment opportunities that do well and do good.

Featured guests

William McDonough

William McDonough is a globally recognized leader in sustainable design and development. He counsels leaders through McDonough Innovation, is an architect with William McDonough + Partners and advises through MBDC, the creators of the framework for Cradle to Cradle Certified™ products. He is active with the World Economic Forum and served as the inaugural chair of their Meta-Council on the Circular Economy. He co-authored Cradle to Cradle: Remaking the Way We Make Things (2002) and The Upcycle: Beyond Sustainability: Designing for Abundance (2013). McDonough received the Presidential Award for Sustainable Development (1996), the first U.S. EPA Presidential Green Chemistry Challenge Award (2003), the National Design Award (2004) and the Fortune Award for Circular Economy Leadership (2017). He was recognized by Time magazine as a “Hero for the Planet,” noting: “His utopianism is grounded in a unified philosophy that—in demonstrable and practical ways—is changing the design of the world,” and in 2019 Fortune magazine named him one of the World’s 50 Greatest Leaders noting his role in advancing green architecture, the Circular Economy and the future of plastics.

Samir Bantal

Samir Bantal is the director of AMO, the think- tank founded by Rem Koolhaas in 1998, which enables OMA to apply its architectural thinking beyond architecture, to the fields of design, technology, media and art. Before joining OMA, Samir worked for Toyo Ito, and was associate professor at Delft Univeristy of Technology in the fields of architecture and urbanism. Between 2008-2012 he was editor of the Annual Architecture Yearbook of the Netherlands. Currently, Samir is responsible for the new retail concept for the luxury car brand Genesis in Seoul, Korea. Also with AMO, Samir is currently working on 3 exhibitions. In Qatar, AMO explores the role of modern architecture in the development of the city of Doha, opening March 2019. Together with the Harvard School of Design, Samir leads Countryside, a comprehensive research project that investigates the interaction between the city and the countryside, which will culminate in an exhibition in the Guggenheim in New York early 2020. Lastly, ‘Figures of Speech’ will show at the MCA Chicago in June 2019. The design of the exhibition, a retrospective on the work of renown designer Virgil Abloh, is a collaboration between Samir and Virgil Abloh.

Stan Stalnaker

Stan Stalnaker is a leader in the field of emerging technology and consciousness and leads Hub Culture, a technology ecosystem that at the forefront of the virtual state movement. Hub Culture began in 2002 as one of the first online social networks, and has always been at the forefront of change and new ideas. It was the first network to offer member coworking (Pavilions), virtual collaboration (Hubs), digital currency payments (Ven), own-your-own-data digital identity (HubID), liquid voting and governance (Propel), artificial intelligence (Zeke) and asset tokenization (Ultra) to over 50,000 digital citizens as part of the global Hub community. Stan started his career at Time Warner in marketing with Fortune Magazine and other TimeWarner integrated projects, then moved to focus on Hub Culture in 2007. Since then Hub Culture has produced over 50+ popup locations in cities around the world with over 70,000 hosted guests, introduced virtual reality environments, interviewed thousands of cultural and business leaders, and launched integrated financial services around Ven, including P2P payments, a digital asset exchange, investment funds and more. As part of Hub Culture’s Ecosystem, Stan advises portfolio companies with activities in blockchain, space, legal frameworks and digital content, and consults with governments and industry regulators on emerging technology best practices and frameworks to lay the foundations for Hub Culture’s eventual emergence as the first virtual state.

Renata Rubian

Renata Rubian lives in Sri Lanka, working as a Programme Analyst at the UNDP Asia Pacific Centre, developing the Regional Human Development Report series. Previously, she was a researcher at the Ecosystem and Livelihoods Group of the IUCN and at the UNEP – Convention on Biological Diversity. Her career with the UN system started at the UNDP in Brazil, intercalated by a year’s break to work for the Canadian Government in Ottawa. She holds a MA in Political Science from McGill University and a BA in International Relations from the University of Brasilia. She was a co-founder of the first UN Simulation Model in Brazil – the 1997 Americas Model UN.

Douglas Monticciolo

Douglas Monticciolo is Chief Executive Officer, Chief Investment Officer and Co-Founder of Brevet Capital Management. He is an entrepreneur and investment manager with deep data analytics and technology experience developed over three decades while providing credit financing and advisory services. Mr. Monticciolo founded Brevet Capital Management in 1998 and has established the firm as a leader in helping government agencies solve complex problems – and drive positive social impact – by creating innovative financing products and services. This “finance as a service” approach provides direct lending and other financing to private middle market companies that enable them to effectively serve the government sector as contractors – a low credit risk strategy with highly competitive barriers to entry. Mr. Monticciolo’s years of experience working in start-up environments as a software entrepreneur and within asset-backed securities, fixed income, and investment banking helped him identify a gap in the market where traditional lenders failed to provide the innovative financing and forward-looking advisory services needed for the private contractors government  contractors rely on to deliver services.

Kate Elizabeth Lloyd

Kate is a Composer of bespoke production music and an Electronic Music Producer under alias, Kloyd. Based in London, Kate is starting to gain recognition as a notable up and coming electronic producer, receiving numerous airplay features on BBC Introducing. Kate graduated with First Class Honours in Music Production at Leeds College of Music and was awarded a full scholarship to study a Masters in Music at the University of Leeds, gaining a Distinction and a certificate of commendation for outstanding achievement. She has since composed music for TopGear, John Lewis and McLaren.

Áine Tennyson

Áine Tennyson works as a Producer & Production Coordinator at Universal Production Music UK. Áine was recently at the helm of a rebrand for Focus Music, illustrating her creative flair and insight into the new look, feel and sound of the label.  After gaining her BMus in 2016 from University of Glasgow in Composition & Sonic Arts, Áine started her career as an intern at Universal Music Publishing. Whilst gaining a certificate in Music Production: Mixing and Mastering at Goldsmiths University in 2017, Áine continues her talents as a composer. Áine is a classically trained singer with a background in Irish Traditional folk music.

This episode was made possible through the kind support of:

Special thank you to:


Coming soon!

Breaking the Fossil Fuel Habit: Just Say No or Buy Shell?


We must end our dependence on Fossil Fuels. “There is no choice,” Claudia Romo Edelman says. But it is not as simple as just stopping, experts explain in this episode, produced in cooperation with the Alphaville blog of the Financial Times. Eighty percent of our energy today comes from Fossil Fuels, explains Izabella Kaminska, editor of Alphaville. If we just go cold turkey, or even transitioned too suddenly, the global economy would shudder. That, in turn, would push other important goals out of reach and cause worldwide disruption and potential political upheaval. 

Claudia and co-host Edie Lush frame this challenge in terms of the Sustainable Development Goals: How do we achieve Goal 13, Climate Action, while also moving toward Goal 1, eradicating extreme poverty or Goal 8, decent work and economic growth? To find answers, they speak with experts who are working on the transition from fossil fuels. 

Adam Matthews, Director of Ethics and Engagement for the Church of England Pensions Board, describes the Transition Pathway Initiative (, which assesses corporations on how effectively they are moving away from Fossil Fuels. Investors like the Pensions Board can then increase their investment in companies that are part of the transition while withdrawing from those that are not, Matthews explained. For example, Royal Dutch Shell makes the list of recommended investments while ExxonMobil does not, Matthews said. 

Izabella Kaminska shares an interview with the iconoclastic environmentalist, Michael Shellenberger, who says that Nuclear power will be an essential component of any plan that maintains adequate power supplies while reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Claudia says it is important to have open conversations with all options on the table.

Facts and Actions are presented in this episode by the United Nations Development Programs Senior Climate Advisor, Cassie Flynn. The UNDP has just launched Mission1point5 (, a mobile game that educates people about climate policy and provides a platform for them to vote on the solutions they want to see. Flynn said these results will be presented to world leaders later in 2020.

Featured guests

Michael Shellenberger

Michael is considered a “climate guru,” “North America’s leading public intellectual on clean energy,” and “high priest” of the environmental humanist movement. Michael has been an environmental and social justice advocate for over 25 years. In the 1990s he helped save California’s last unprotected ancient redwood forest, and inspire  Nike to improve factory conditions in Asia. In the 2000s, Michael advocated for a “New Apollo project” in clean energy, which resulted in a $150 billion public investment in clean tech between 2009 and 2015. Currently, is the President and was the Founder of Environmental Progress promoting pertinent changes to help progress the future of climate change.

Adam Matthews

Adam is the Director of Ethics and Engagement for the Church of England Pensions Board, as well as Co-Chair of the Transition Pathway Initiative and a Board Member of the Institutional Investors Group on Climate Change, (IIGCC).  He is also the co-lead, on behalf of CA100+, for engagement with Royal Dutch Shell that led to the 2018 joint statement on climate targets agreed between Shell and institutional investors. Following the Brumadinho Tailings Dam disaster, Adam is co – lead of the Mining and Tailings Safety Initiative with John Howchin, from the Swedish Ethics Council. He also represents the Principles for Responsible Investment as a co – convenor of the Global Tailings Review. Adam founded and now Co-Chairs the Transition Pathway Initiative (TPI) an asset owner-led and asset manager-supported global initiative which assess companies’ preparedness for the transition to the low carbon economy (and publishes this through the London School of Economics).  Adam is also the lead for the Church of England on the Mining and Faith Reflections Initiative (MFRI) a forum that convenes dialogue between mining company CEO’s and Church leaders. Adam also serves as a member of the Royal College of Physicians Investment Advisory Board and on the Pension and Lifetime Savings Association (PLSA) Stewardship Advisory Group.

Cassie Flynn

Cassie Flynn is the Senior Advisor on Climate Change in the Executive Office of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP). Cassie is an internationally recognized expert on the international treaty negotiations on climate change and provides advice to countries on how to develop and fulfill their pledges under the Paris Agreement. In 2017 – 2018, she served as a senior advisor to the Prime Minister of Fiji in his role as COP23 President. Prior to UNDP, Cassie provided strategic advisory services on climate change and sustainability to national, state and local governments, international organizations, multi-billion dollar companies, and civil society groups. Cassie also co-founded, a non-profit to help build stronger, more sustainable neighborhoods. She, along with her co-founders, won a Jane Jacobs medal for her work with Cassie has also advised numerous creative media projects such as the film Angry Birds, television show Incorporated, and music project Happy Sounds Like. Cassie earned her Master’s degree from Yale University and undergraduate degrees from Bowdoin College. In 2011, Cassie published “Blending Climate Finance through National Climate Funds,” a guidebook on designing and establishing national funds. In 2013, Cassie published “South-Originating Green Finance: Exploring the Potential.” In 2017, she was named the 13th most influential person on climate change by Onalytica.

Izabella Kaminska

Izabella Kaminska is the editor of FT Alphaville. She joined FT Alphaville in October 2008, which was, perhaps, the best time in the world to become a financial blogger. Before that she worked as a producer at CNBC, a natural gas reporter at Platts and an associate editor of BP’s internal magazine. She has also worked as a reporter on English language business papers in Poland and Azerbaijan and was a Reuters graduate trainee in 2004. Everything she knows about economics stems from a childhood fascination with ancient economies, specifically the agrarian land reforms of the early Roman republic and the coinage and price stability reforms of late Roman emperors. Her favourite emperor is one Gaius Aurelius Valerius Diocletian. She studied Ancient History at UCL and has a masters in Journalism from what was then the London College of Printing.

Special thank you to:


Adam Matthews (00:01):

Is there a path for the likes of a shell or BP to transition? That means that yes, they are producers of oil and gas at the moment, but are they able to reshape their business to become a very different company in the future? Where, those companies are not doing that and playing that constructive role. Then I think you quite clearly got to ask yourself, is it right to remain invested? If you don’t believe that that company is going to change,


Izabella Kaminska (00:26):

It’s not as easy as just divesting because you don’t want to kill the patient along with the disease.


Michael Shellenberger (00:33):

Yeah. I have a very basic physical and moral view of energy that I think are easy to understand, which is that uranium using nuclear is better than burning natural gas burning natural gas is better than burning coal and burning coal is better than burning wood.


Claudia  (00:57):

Welcome to the Global Goalscast!


Edie  (00:59):

The podcast that explores how we can change the world. In this episode, breaking our fossil fuel habit.


Claudia  (01:05):

We must do it. There is no choice but how do we do it without economic disruption that could be as damaging as the climate catastrophe that we’re trying to advert.


Edie  (01:17):

Today we’re going to be talking about transitioning off carbon. How do we do it quickly but also safely and fairly? We will speak with three real experts on transition pathways.


Claudia  (01:29):

And I am super impressed with the people that we are having in the podcast today. You and I, their listener might not agree with everything they say, but each of them has really thought about the next 10 to 20 years in a deeper way and it is good for us to be able to debate and dialogue.


Edie  (01:47):

For sure. We’re going to hear from the man in charge of investing the pension funds of the church of England, a leading force in green investing.


Claudia  (01:55):

And we will also have an environmentalist who’s viewed by some others as heretic because he says he sees no way to core of climate change without nuclear power.


Edie  (02:05):

And when we come back we’ll be joined by a special guest, a financial times journalist who’s helped us put this episode together. She is the editor of the FT’s Alphaville financial and markets blog.


Edie  (02:17):

I can’t wait to talk to her and we will right after this.


Michelle (02:23):

Thanks to CBS news digital and Universal Production music.


Claudia  (02:37):

Welcome back. I’m Claudia Romo Edelman.


New Speaker (02:39):

And I’m Edie Lush. Claudia, welcome to season four!


Claudia  (02:43):

Edie can you believe it?


Edie  (02:45):

It’s exciting!


Claudia  (02:46):

I know our third year of the Global Goalscast! I feel the world is really listening.


Edie  (02:54):

I know! I was also thrilled, by the way, when called us influential. I think if we are at all influential, it’s thanks to all of our dear listeners.


Claudia  (03:06):

We do have a very influential audience, Edie, those that care that are in positions of power, the decision makers, but also the people that are going to take these forward to our audience is a very influential audience. And particularly those of you who have listened and gotten more involved in the challenge of achieving the sustainable development goals.


Edie  (03:29):

And today we’re going to talk about the biggest challenge of all: freeing the world from fossil fuels. Fossil fuels powered us to the world we have today. There are so baked into everything that removing them is a huge task.


Claudia  (03:44):

Which is why our commitment to including everyone in the conversation is crucial. This podcast is produced by We are all Human. We are all Human is inclusive we need anyone and everyone to play a role and when bringing the voices that should be here to the equation and to say these in terms of the sustainable development goals or SDGs is how do you achieve the global goal 13 which is climate action while also achieving global goal one: eradicating poverty or goal eight: decent work and economic growth.


Edie  (04:19):

So to help us take on this big question about how to transition away from carbon, we turn again to our colleagues at the financial times. Delighted now to be joined by Izabella Kaminska, the editor of the FTS Alphaville blog. Welcome.


Izabella Kaminska (04:32):

Hello. It’s really nice to be here. Thank you for having me.


Claudia  (04:35):

Great to have you, Izabella. Now you are more than just a great guest. You’ve actually helped us make this episode and it all began with an item you wrote for the Financial Times Alphaville blog, isn’t it?


Izabella Kaminska (04:50):

Yes, exactly. Just a bit of background. Alphaville is the stubbornly contrarian end of the FT, we’re the finance and markets blog has as mentioned and a bit to stay true to our name and give investors something called alpha outperformance. We’re always interested in exploring what investors are missing right now. Hence we end up being contrarian. The big investment trend now being ESG,


Claudia  (05:11):

Iza are we know what we’re talking about, what, what is ESG, what does ESG stand for.


Izabella Kaminska (05:16):

ESG stands for environment, social and governance investing, which is all about imparting those values into the investment space.


Claudia  (05:25):

So tell us about the blog that you wrote.


Izabella Kaminska (05:27):

It was just about sparking the debate and it was related to thinking about the potential social and economic damage that can happen if and when we just bow down to the immediate demands of say, climate activists. Because really climate transition is a balance. It’s a balance between maintaining the economy as it is and getting rid of off fossil fuel addiction. But if we move too quickly, the big risk is that we induce poverty or we create a sort of massive deterioration and living that ironically only makes the environment even worse


Edie  (06:00):

And this is all happening in a week or in a few weeks when there’s a lot going on. BP has announced that it will be carbon neutral by 2050. Delta announced that it would be the first U S airline to go carbon neutral,


Claudia  (06:13):

And also the KKR, Edie, launching a $1.3 billion impact fund. And part of what we will share this episode is how to keep track and how to distinguish between real transition and well, uh, not.


Edie  (06:29):

So Izabella, let’s get the big picture from you. Why can’t we just say no to fossil fuels?


Izabella Kaminska (06:35):

It’s not as easy as just divesting because you don’t want to kill the patient along with the disease. Just think about the Brexit debate. The Brexit debate was all about how we would be opening the door to self-imposed economic damage because of limiting our global supply chains and all these sorts of things are actually instrumental and pivotal in the in the fossil fuel economy. So if we just turn around and say no to that, there is a really big danger that we decrease living standards for everybody that can create all sorts of societal responses that include mass protests, huge amounts of economic destabilization in general. We obviously have to do something about climate change that is not negotiable, but we must also think down the line in terms of what the unintended consequences are. We can’t just think immediately there is going to be an upside from just boycotting BP.


Edie  (07:32):

So we have to think about lowering emissions quickly while maintaining economic growth, especially for those countries that you mentioned that are starting to grow faster and pull themselves out of poverty.


Izabella Kaminska (07:44):

The real challenge is to find a solution that allows us to have both and a lot of people out there think that maybe the pathways is going more towards nuclear options or you need that big moonshot, some sort of innovation that hasn’t yet happened. As far as the current complex of renewable technologies, it’s clear they’re there, they’re available, they’re actually at the moment too much capacity of solar and not enough demand for it. So from that perspective, it is the question of how do we achieve the transition without necessarily hurting the public in such a way that it puts the clock backwards.


Claudia  (08:20):

I love the way that you put it, of not killing the patient while you’re killing the disease. So one of the people we spoke to is Adam Matthews.


Edie  (08:30):

I went to see him at the offices of the church of England in beautiful Westminster London in the pouring rain. Adam is head of ethics and engagement for the churches pension board.


Adam Matthews (08:43):

We are pension fund and our responsibility fundamentally is to the 40,000 beneficiaries that we have, which are largely members of the clergy to provide a pension for them to retire.


Edie  (08:53):

I asked him to explain the investment choices he’s making, balancing the hopes of these retirees with the huge transition the world must make from fossil fuels. In other words, a microcosm of the challenge that we all face.


Adam Matthews (09:06):

Well, I suppose my starting point is can a, an oil and gas company transition consistent with the science and the economics of the Paris agreement? Is there a path for the likes of Shell or BP to transition? That means that yes, they are producers of oil and gas at the moment, but are they able to reshape their business to become a very different company in the future? Because at the moment you have a very significant part of the global economy fueled by oil, gas, thermal coal. A growing part of it is supported by renewables, but for us to shift from where we are today to where we need to be, you’re going to need to see companies shift the way that they provide energy into that system. Now if a company comes to me that says, right, okay, we acknowledge that we provide at the moment oil and gas, but we see a role for us to be able to transition from that to start to reduce that contribution of oil to start to transition through gas into renewables and other ways of supporting the energy grid. Then if that’s credible, if it lines up with the science, the economics, then I think that’s an a legitimate path the company can take.


Claudia  (10:10):

So to say these another way, you do not just abandon entire industries in an instant. You look inside it industry to separate good corporate citizens from, well not so good corporate citizens. So to do that Adam Matthews and colleagues have created a tool called the transition pathway initiative that any investor can use.


Edie  (10:33):

In fact, anyone can use it. It’s very cool. So if you go to their website, you can see who’s starting to make changes, who is aligned with the Paris accord, like Iberdrola the utility company and who isn’t like interestingly enough, Berkshire Hathaway,


Adam Matthews (10:48):

we have a range of ways in which we can sort of make interventions, align our investments, incentivize and I think tools like the transition pathway initiative provide a lens for asset owners in particular to understand the transition, to be able to identify which companies within those sectors are transitioning, which ones aren’t, and to really start to sort of use the tools that we have at our disposal be their stewardship one such as our votes on directors, filing of shareholder resolutions or actually reallocating our capital to other companies because I think there’s multiple interventions to be made as asset owners. I think we’re quite uniquely placed to make a number of them and to work in partnership with others, governments, companies, et cetera, wider society and trying to sort of shift at a level that’s related to the the scale of the challenge here. I lead on the engagement of Royal Dutch shell and I do that on behalf of the climate action 100 network, which is a 42 trillion coalition of investors wanting to see companies transition and there we’ve used the TPI tool to really have a very detailed deep discussion with Shell about what’s their path of transition, how do they change from fundamentally an oil and gas company to become an energy provider of the energy solutions for the future market that will exist that will be a low carbon one.


Edie  (12:07):

Adam Matthews gave me a sense of the scale of the challenge and its importance. If you add up all the actions of all the public companies, they blow right through the Paris agreement goal of holding temperature increase below two degrees Celsius.


Adam Matthews (12:21):

We’re looking proactively for positive investments, ones that are in the low carbon transition in infrastructure. That is part of that transition, but also looking at the way in which we sort of invest through things like our passive investments that simply track the market. Well, the market at the moment is a 3.8 degree market as the bank of England governor publicly warned earlier this year. So if we just track that market well we’re tracking and we actually reinforce in a world that really our beneficiaries don’t want to retire into and doesn’t suit our financial needs.


Claudia  (12:55):

So instead of tracking the market and reinforcing a 3.8 degree increase in global temperatures, the church is following an index fund that takes climate into account.


Adam Matthews (13:07):

We’ve put 600 million pounds of our passive investments from the pensions board into that index to demonstrate it is possible to use forward looking data on companies to differentiate which ones are transitioning, which ones aren’t. And excluding those from the index that haven’t set targets or are not responding to the requests for them to make such targets. And so for us, we’ve begun that process of differentiation and we’ve signaled that passive investments doesn’t mean that you’re passive in your responsibilities and that you can take action. And so I think there’s a multitude of ways that we sort of intersect direct engagement. The way that we align some of our finance, the way that we can incentivize by trying to find positive investments and then the last one I’d say is the way that we intersect with public policy. We’re looking at the way companies lobby through their industry associations and we want to see consistency in that because we think is a key interface with the nature of the regulatory environment that needs to be as ambitious as possible but is constrained by negative lobby and of industry associations.


Edie  (14:06):

The detail captured in the transition pathway initiative is fascinating. You can look at an industry and see how well it’s aligned with climate goals. Oil and gas, pretty bad, shipping on the other hand, much better, but what’s even more important as Adam explained is that you can single out individual companies within an industry


Adam Matthews (14:26):

Where those companies are not doing that and playing that constructive role, then I think you’ve quite clearly got to ask yourself, is it right to remain invested? If you don’t believe that that company is going to change. And for us tools like the transition pathway initiative is provided in a way to really start to differentiate between those that are starting to change their businesses very fundamentally with those that aren’t. And I draw the contrast between the likes of shell, BP and the likes of Exxon and Chevron where quite clearly you’re seeing some moving and some quite simply resisting. And for us we’ve started to differentiate. We’ve started to reallocate our investments away from those companies so we no longer hold Exxon. We no longer hold Chevron because we don’t see it at the moment that they’re part of the transition. And I think you’ll see increasingly investors move in that way. What we’ve wanted to do really was to have a credible, transparent, academically rigorous way of being able to differentiate which companies are moving in line with the transition and which aren’t. And so the index we created differentiates basically companies that are set in those long term targets and those that don’t. And then it sort of will reward a company that sets a net zero target and actually double the investments. So a company like Iberdrola in Spain gets double the investments as a result of that index a company like Exxon that doesn’t have targets that doesn’t disclose to TPI isn’t included in the index.


Claudia  (15:51):

That is quite bold, this index. And so one of the big announcements in the last couple of weeks was about BP and now seeing that they are going to be net zero. Lexicon alert! That means carbon neutral by 2050.


Adam Matthews (16:06):

There’s a lot of detail to be filled in and we’re still in dialogue to understand exactly how much of all of their activity is covered by these new commitments. But my expectation is that when there’s a new assessment by the London school of economics TPI team, that this potentially puts them in as a company that could become investible from the index. But we need to go through that independent academic process that’s led by London School of Economics.


Edie  (16:29):

To be clear. It’s not just the church deciding if BP is joining the ranks of the righteous, but there’s an independent group of sharp pencils at the London school of economics making these assessments.


Claudia  (16:41):

Yes, it had to be the LSE London school of economics. That’s my Alma mater!


Adam Matthews (16:47):

And I think we’re in a very new phase. It’s going to be those companies that are making the commitments so the ones that investors are going to work with and you’ve actually got and got this sort of alignment of interests as a pension fund along with many other pension funds that we work with. We’re committed to seeing net zero achieved by 2050. We know we can’t achieve all of that by ourselves across multiple asset classes, across the changes that need to happen in society. You’ve got companies like Shell equally acknowledging that they need to make longterm commitments and BP net zero commitment. We have a mutual interest and an aligned interest of making interventions now to drive the transition together in certain ways and those companies making those commitments become partners in that space. And I think companies like Exxon are exempting themselves from that new in effect, collaborative, very different world that I think you’ll see finance aligning to very significantly and potentially very disruptively for a company like Exxon.


Claudia  (17:42):

Many oil executives defend their business by saying they are still serving of the mind. Adam Matthews addressed that directly.


Adam Matthews (17:52):

Lots of the sectors that demand energy, shipping, aviation, cars, freight, these are all demand side drivers of the energy that these companies provide. If those that are driving the demands start to change, well the new oil and gas sector has gotta be responsive or they’re going to be providing things that people don’t want. And I think the whole focus on the engagement on the investor side, on the sort of finance center has got to shift onto these demand side drivers and really working with them on what is their net zero carbon pathway. How can you basically decarbonize freight traffic across Europe or within key countries? How does that happen? What needs to be put in place in terms of infrastructure? What are the technologies that are needed and how can those companies that have started to move as the energy producers in a positive way and set in similar ambitions, how can they work in partnership with the truck companies?


Edie  (18:52):

Izabella, you made an interesting observation in Alphaville the other day that divestment can actually undermine climate action rather than foster it. Tell me about that.


Izabella Kaminska (19:02):

Well, it’s in response to all these activists sort of coming along and demanding everybody drops investments immediately, but the topic of divestment being controversial has been around for ages. When I was at the UN climate finance talks in 2015 it was already understood then, that perhaps it’s not the best pathway because actually you’re, you’re having to sell those assets to somebody. In many cases, you’re selling those assets to opportunist market players who are not so interested in climate, don’t have the same responsible investing parameters around them. Therefore, are you really helping matters? In the long run, you could say, well, you know, they are starved of financing these bad actors through divestment and we’ll wind up because no one will finance them. But I would say that’s a really risky attitude because if it was that easy to starve out bad players, we would have solved the drug problem by now. Illegal drugs get financing, even though officially no one’s supposed to be financing them and the assets don’t go away, especially the operating ones. So if it really comes down to it, it’s a question of who then buys them and more likely it’ll be the rushes or China’s that come in and acquire these assets. Then you get a regime that takes ownership that doesn’t care at all about de-carbonization.


Edie  (20:16):

So what do you make of the church of England’s method?


Speaker 4 (20:19):

I think it’s a really logical method. I was really struck by the point that you have to stick with these companies and only if they’re not prepared to change, then you leave. It really reminds me again of the Brexit argument. I mean, we hear all the time that.


New Speaker (20:34):

You just can’t get away with it!


New Speaker (20:34):

Obviously it’s a universal truth that is usually better to stay in a club so that you can help influence that club. So just leaving is not the right policy. That said, I think what the church of England, the good point they make is eventually you get to a point where perhaps you can’t influence that body and then you can threaten to leave and hopefully through the negotiation of threatening to leave you, you change behaviors.


Claudia  (20:58):

Hmm. Now Iza I’m just like going to Latinized your name.


Izabella Kaminska (21:03):

It’s, fine!


Claudia  (21:07):

Tell us you brought something with you, haven’t you like a new voice to the table.


Izabella Kaminska (21:11):

That’s right. Some FT colleagues and I recently chatted with a rubber iconoclastic environmentalist. His name is Michael Shellenberger and his views on the pathway to a low carbon economy diverge in several ways from mainstream environmental thinking.


Michael Shellenberger (21:27):

I have a very basic physical and moral view of energy that I think are easy to understand, which is that uranium using nuclear is better than burning natural gas, burning natural gas is better than burning coal and burning coal is better than burning wood. And that, what happens when you go from wood to coal to natural gas to uranium is you’re using a fuel that’s more energy dense, meaning there’s just more energy per unit of matter per mass. And you’re also decarbonizing, you’re also reducing a bunch of conventional pollutants. So if you go from coal to natural gas, you basically eliminate most conventional air pollutants by doing that and you cut your carbon emissions in half. If you go just from wood to coal, we think of coal is super dirty, but if you go from wood to coal, you move the smoke out of the house, right? And so coal might be very dirty, but it’s cleaner than burning wood or dung in your home and breathing the toxic air, which kills about 4 million people a year.


Izabella Kaminska (22:24):

And it’s that logical progression on energy that leads Shellenberger his provocative views.


Michael Shellenberger (22:30):

In the early two thousands I became very concerned about climate change and thought that the, the mainstream approach, which was to put a price on carbon through a carbon tax or some other mechanism wasn’t going to work because the carbon tax couldn’t be high enough to incentivize the new technologies and a bunch of other political problems with it. And what we thought mattered was to actually have some public sector support for renewables. And so we advocated for a major investment in renewables in the early two thousands that was eventually picked up by president Obama and the United States invested about 150 billion in renewables, energy efficiency, electric cars in the light between 2007 and 2015 but as soon as we started working on it, we realized there’s a bunch of problems with renewables that we were having a hard time solving. There were ideas about batteries and using a hydroelectric dams as backups, but a lot of the opposition to expanding solar and wind farms was coming from environmentalists who were concerned about the impacts on wildlife who were, you know, troubled by the, the noise, the sound they make. And the more that I looked at it, I started to realize that there was just a bunch of problems that I didn’t think that technological innovation could overcome. The first one is just that sunlight and wind are dilute. So to give you a sense of it, in sunny California takes 450 times more land to generate the same amount of electricity from a solar farm as it does from a nuclear plant. Well, there’s no amount of technological innovation that’s going to make sunlight more dense and there’s also no more amount of technological innovation that’s going to make it more reliable. So you ended up having a bunch of challenges that drew me to rethinking some kind of core beliefs. And at the same time I had a bunch of friends who were like, why don’t you take a second look at nuclear? And when I did, I realized that a lot of the fears I had had as a boy growing up at the end of the cold war were misplaced and that this was maybe our most misunderstood technology.


Izabella Kaminska (24:18):

I asked him about the anti-nuclear and climate movements.


Michael Shellenberger (24:21):

A lot of us that grew up in the cold war were afraid of nuclear war and when the cold war went away, meaning that there really wasn’t much risk of a nuclear war. I think those of us that had a sort of apocalyptic vision then mapped that onto climate change. I’m very concerned about climate change. I don’t have an apocalyptic view. I think it’s a a hundred year problem, not a 10 year problem. I think that we’re going to solve it and that it’ll be a bigger problem for poorer countries that failed to adapt, but that’s also solved by more energy. The second thing I think is that there’s just a kind of radical agenda behind thinking of climate change as apocalyptic, which then justifies all sorts of things that people wanted to do before they were ever worried about climate change. If you read Naomi Klein’s book or George Monbiot at the guardian, there’s a sense of investing in things like community agriculture and mass transit and all sorts of things that might be well and fine, but they’re not things that necessarily move the needle in terms of carbon emissions and I think the third thing is more of a spiritual issue. This is how I end my new book that’s going to come out in June, which is that I think that those of us that are secular, that no longer believe in traditional religions still had a desire to believe in some kind of apocalypse and arguably some kind of higher power. This is why so many people look in environmentalist and they go, boy, that sure looks like a religion because we’re basically treating scientists like priests, we’re treating nature like God, and we’re suggesting that the world will end unless everybody adopts a new morality. You have to stop flying. You have to stop driving cars, you have to stop eating meat. You know, the best science says if you stop eating meat, you might reduce your emissions by 4%, 2%-4% the main event is decarbonizing energy, and the only countries that have done that have done it with hydro and nuclear and only nuclear is really scalable. But then at that moment people say, Oh gosh, no, we don’t want nuclear.


Izabella Kaminska (26:15):

One of Shellenberger’s iconoclastic views is on carbon pricing, which many economists and environmentalists still believe is essential to shift demand away from fossil fuels.


Michael Shellenberger (26:25):

The mantra for like the last couple of decades was that you need a price on carbon. You need a carbon tax. I think that’s gone away a bit in most recent years because it hasn’t worked, but the only reason that anybody could ever say that a carbon tax was the most efficient way to deal with climate change was under the assumption that every country in the world would have the same carbon tax that would be to prevent what they call leakage. Meaning that your industries don’t then go to a place with cheaper energy because they burn coal. Well, first of all, that’s ridiculous. Politically. It’s never going to happen. But also it’s like why would the Congo need to have a carbon price the same as Britain’s? That’s just completely unfair.


Izabella Kaminska (27:03):

In Shellenberger’s view, Europe has run a natural experiment that answers the question of how the world can get off fossil fuels. France used nuclear, Germany did not.


Michael Shellenberger (27:13):

Well, I think the easiest way to understand it is just to look at France and Germany and we had a natural experiment over the last 20 years. France produces one 10th of the carbon emissions per unit of electricity as Germany and spends about half as much for electricity. Germany has seen its electricity prices rise 50% over the last 10 years. They are going to have spent $580 billion by 2025 and they still only get 37% of their electricity from renewables, whereas France is somewhere around 88% clean electricity. So there you have it. It’s interesting because of course solar panels and wind turbines have gotten cheaper. So why are they making electricity so expensive? Well, I always point out, you know, corn, rice, beans, the commodities that use to make food have gotten a lot cheaper actually over the last 20 years and yet restaurants keep getting more expensive. How could it be because electricity’s a service like going into the restaurant, you know, we think it’s a commodity because it’s the same everywhere. We have electricity wherever we want it. Whenever we went to 24 hours a day, seven days a week. But the way that the electricity grid works in a way that provides cheap electricity is by always having supply and demand in harmony. So you’re always producing just as much electricity as you need. Otherwise you have blow outs from too much or you have blackouts from not enough. Well that gets disrupted as soon as you start adding large amounts of unreliable electricity from solar and wind. Hydroelectricity is different because hydro electricity is reliable. I think it’s the highest form of renewable power. It’s the one renewable source of energy that actually allows countries to industrialize. No poor country has industrialized on wood and dung or solar panels and wind turbines. You need constantly running 24 seven electricity to run factories. If you’re going to compete for an H&M factory or a Nike factory or whatever, Ethiopia is now doing this, they’re taking some of the clothing factories that that labor prices are too expensive in China for. They did it by building a big dam, right, and so then when you see countries that have then decarbonized the rest of their grid, like Sweden and France, they did it with nuclear. We’ve not seen a single country do that with solar and wind and it’s because it’s not possible. The land requirements are too large and the unreliability problems are too disruptive. So everybody says what about batteries? Batteries are greater for your cell phone and your laptop, but are prohibitively expensive for powering the whole grid. Just to give you a sense of it, by the way, nuclear would also benefit from batteries, but it would take 10 times more batteries and thus times the cost to have to back up a grid of solar and wind rather than a grid of nuclear. That’s because the nuclear plants run 90% of the time. Solar and wind are just run 10 to 40% of the time.


Izabella Kaminska (29:55):

My colleague Tom Hale asked about the arguments that averting climate catastrophe calls for changing consumption habits.


Michael Shellenberger (30:02):

So if I go and say, look, I’m going to imagine this completely different reality, we may call it a utopia, and in my reality we consume 10% of what we consume now and we’re all powered by renewables and we all live in harmony with each other. Sure. Of course. That’s what they say. Is there any realism to it? I don’t think so.


Edie  (30:26):

Izabella, thank you so much for sharing that interview with us. It’s striking to me how he can take a point that isn’t that controversial and then make it sound like a stick in the eye. Does anyone think that changing consumption habits on its own will curb climate change?


Izabella Kaminska (30:40):

I don’t think anyone does think that and certainly he tends to be quite controversial in nature because he’s putting out these pieces, the big think pieces sort of saying, Oh, renewables are not the answer, et cetera, et cetera. But you know, when I met him I thought he did make some very important and compelling points when it comes to solar for example, the backlash from the industry is always, well no solar is coming down in price. What is he on about? But his issue, if you really listen to what he’s saying is that it’s about reliability and reliability is really, you know, you’re not substituting like for like fossil fuels or reliable, no matter how cheap those modular units become, they’re never going to be that reliable and it’s that unknown unknown that becomes the cost in the system. So changing consumption is not going to change things in and of itself for sure. But we have to understand that perhaps there is the bigger point here, which is that all this energy pricing is relative to the consistent needs of society and fossil fuels unfortunately have this reliability factor to them, which only nuclear can really substitute and I think that’s a compelling point.


Claudia  (31:51):

Well actually that’s going to be the opening for us to wrap this episode and have a little discussion here. I think that’s very interesting. The voice that you brought us well is controversial, but here we want to emphasize on the value of debate and on the power of dialogue. How important it is to be able to accept that someone else has a different opinion than yours and that societies that are healthy have to learn how to live with that tension of understanding that we don’t all agree on the same things. Too close. I want to say I love that article on the financial times last weekend about how to heal our planet. In particular, my friend Christiana Figueres, who’s one of the architects of the Paris agreement saying these three mindsets to survive the climate crisis are a stubborn optimism, which probably I would fall into, endless abundance and then radical regeneration.


Edie  (32:50):

So I think at the risk of this becoming an FT kind of love in, that article also pointed out another book by Anatol Lieven, who’s formerly of the FT, and he said that the biggest obstacle to effective climate action isn’t technology or even money, but the lack of motivation and mobilization of elites around the world. Too many countries have residual elites who’ve been shaped by past conflicts and can’t adapt to the challenge that climate change brings.


Izabella Kaminska (33:18):

I think you’ve made like fantastic points all around. Um, the only thing is,


Claudia  (33:21):

You may disagree with us! This is where we are open about it.


Izabella Kaminska (33:25):

It’s one of my concerns is how the likes of Michael Shellenberger are being responded to online. I don’t think it’s very constructive to just call names and throw huge sort of ad hominem attacks that people, but the same goes for the heretics and the climate deniers. It is better to have them at the table than it is to completely ostracize them because then you just create microcosms where people would just continue the bad behaviors regardless. And so Shellenberger’s other point that I think is really important is the one about tax arbitrage and that really, I hadn’t really appreciated it until now, but that is going to be an issue. The main issue therefore becomes one of political dialogue. Unfortunately, where does this lead us to, I’m kind of concerned, but I do think it leads us to questioning weather democracy and sort of free market doctrine is the future path if we are going to achieve these targets. And I think the likes of extinction rebellion have recognized this by bringing to the table this idea of citizen assemblies where effectively the public is invited to take part in legislation but only on a very reduced level. It’s certainly not going to be the sort of old fashioned democracy that we’re used to. And really I think that is the big debate we need to have. And no one’s really having that debate.


Claudia  (34:37):

What is the debate that we should actually integrate citizen opinion in the debate about like climate into the government.


Izabella Kaminska (34:44):

No, no, I think the debate is whether democracy is compatible with achieving climate directives. Because look at the gilet jaune. I mean it’s not the case 100% that they were only rebelling against a fuel hikes, but that did play a very big role. So the question is, you know, that even if you, if you get rid of the residual elite problem, the remaining leads, if they start to pass on their, their tax, are they going to remain the elite? Are they going to remain in power? If the population at large decides that actually convenience is more important than climate because everybody, you know, is fundamentally selfish.


Edie  (35:20):

So the one thing I wanted to add was that we’ve already started to see a bubble coming through in ESG investing. And that’s been the possibly even frightening thing because money is moving into ESG and away from these value funds, which is really interesting because as we pointed out, the top Berkshire Hathaway is nowhere in this debate around climate.


Izabella Kaminska (35:43):

I think that’s really fundamentally the key issue here is that what are going to be the repercussions in markets when you see this tsunami of capital moving from one sector to the other. And the reality is that there aren’t enough companies out there to absorb that capital. And even in terms of what, well, what happens to any industry when they, they’re given lots of cheap capital. You get over investment misallocation, a lot of scams, Ponzi schemes, et cetera because subsidization has an economic impact. It essentially allows for very bad behavior and that is the risk there because unless the demand comes for those products, you’re going to continue to see this mismatch in terms of the value companies that end up being starved of capital as a result. Well again, that leads us to the old argument I already said about while somebody has still going to buy them and you’re just handing over ownerships of the wrong players that I like the point that Adam Matthews was making that perhaps a better strategy, keeping it within sector, so playing the sector off against each other. I thought that was a really good idea because if you’re not necessarily divesting out of fossil fuels entirely, but using BP ownership to kind of encourage exxon to change its behaviors because if it does, then it will get cheaper funding. Well, that is a good strategy because you’re then using the sector itself to play itself off against.


Edie  (37:03):

And going back to your point that you were making that in 2015 actually becoming an active shareholder in these companies and trying to push from within is the right direction.


Izabella Kaminska (37:13):

Yes, because as a shareholder you have the capacity to vote down direction that you don’t approve of and also just the threat of leaving is much more powerful than leaving itself.


Speaker 2 (37:27):

And now three facts and actions to impress your mother-in-law around the dinner table. This episode, they come from Cassie Flynn, strategic advisor on climate at the United nations development program.


Claudia  (37:39):

I love their new game. They’re always inventing new ways to attract the audience. Younger audience. Have you played Edie?


Edie  (37:45):

I have! Haven’t you?


Claudia  (37:46):

You have? Well you can download it on your phone and decide which actions will mostly help the climate.


Edie  (37:53):

And it has a real purpose as Cassie Flynn will explain after giving us the facts.


Cassie Flynn (38:00):

Fact number one, we know that the world is getting warmer and as scientists are measuring the temperature rise, they tell us that we must stay below 1.5 degrees to stay safe. The troubling news is that we are already at one degree and just at this one degree rise we are already seeing these impacts like wildfires in Australia. More category five storms in the Caribbean and droughts in Africa. There’s a very small window between one and 1.5 degrees and we must take bold action immediately. Fact number two 2020 is the year that countries around the world are meant to submit their pledges under the Paris agreement. It’s a make or break moment. These pledges will outline what every country will do to address climate change like reducing their emissions or reducing the risk of climate impacts like storms and sea level rise and drought. And the first round of pledges were submitted in 2015 and they were way off. They got us to about three degrees rise. That’s way over the 1.5 degree level that keeps us safe. So now five years later in 2020 countries are meant to submit an enhanced version before cop 26 in Glasgow. The stakes could not be higher. Fact number three, more people participated in a climate March or protest in the last year than ever before. People are taking to the streets. Students are hosting walkouts and sit-ins, and this really derives from the realization that we are running out of time to change the future and more and more people are asking, what can I do to help solve the climate crisis? And here are my actions. Number one, don’t give up hope, the stakes are high. It feels so overwhelming, but we have seen incredible changes in the last few years and we can’t give up. What we do today will affect every generation to come and we can solve this problem. Action number two, we need to talk about systemic solutions. And I say systemic because while it’s fantastic that people are talking about flying less or using less plastic and other really good habits, we must change how the world gets its energy. We need to change the way we grow food. We need to change our relationships to the ocean and forests and this has to happen at an unprecedented pace and scale. Action number three, everyone in the world should be voting on what their government should do. Please, please, please go to That’s M I, S S, I, O, N, number one P O I N T number and vote on what you think your country should do to address climate change. The UN and the university of Oxford are going to analyze all of these votes and then going to deliver tailor made reports to world leaders. We’re going to put reports on these world leaders desks that say how countries voted on the solutions. And the idea is that we can help to encourage world leaders as they’re making these critical decisions on climate change.


Edie  (41:10):

Thanks to Cassie Flynn for those facts and actions. If you miss that website address, you can find it in our show notes.


Claudia  (41:17):

And thank you Izabella for joining us.


Izabella Kaminska (41:20):

It was a real pleasure and thank you again.


Edie  (41:23):

And thanks to our guests Adam Matthews, Michael Shellenberger and Cassie Flynn.


Claudia  (41:28):

And thanks for listening. Please like and subscribe via iTunes or wherever you your podcast from, and follow us on social media at GlobalGoalscast. See you next time. Bye.


Michelle (41:41):

GlobalGoalscast was hosted by Edie lush and Claudia Romo Edelman. We are editorial gurued by Mike Oreskes, editing and sound production by Simon James. Our operations director is Michelle Cooperrider and our interns, Brittany Segura and Tarryn Rennie. Music in this episode was courtesy of universal production music, one of the world’s leading production music companies, creating and licensing music for film, television, advertising, broadcast, and other media, including podcasts, original music by Neil Hale, Angelica Garcia, Simon James, Katie crone, and Andrew Phillips. Thanks to CBS NewsDigital.

The Global Warning of Australia’s Wildfires


Wildfire season in Australia has brought human and environmental tragedy. It also has sent a warning to us all. “There’s a huge, really very important message for everybody in the world looking at these fires,” Matthew England, a professor of oceanography and climate at the University of New South Wales, explains in the final episode of Global GoalsCast’s Season Three. “This is a glimpse into our future. we only have to take warming levels of the planet to about three degrees Celsius, which we’re not far off… We’re a third of the way to that warming…(and) the summer we’ve just had will be basically a normal summer event.”

In fact, 2019 was the warmest driest year ever recorded in Australia, with temperatures 1.5 degrees Celsius above the average in the late twentieth century. Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman speak with Australians to understand the impact of these fires. Catriona Wallace, the founder and director of Flamingo Ai, a machine learning company, describes the flaming hell that consumed both her family farm and the neighborhood around her family summer home. “It’s like driving through something from a Mad Max movie or through an apocalypse,” she reports. “It’s something quite terrifying and extraordinary to experience.” The frightening experience has prompted her to focus her skills in Artificial Intelligence on creating tools to prevent or alleviate fires. She notes, too, that with men in charge things aren’t going well in Australian climate policy. Australia is the world’s largest exporter of coal and had a major hand in derailing the 2019 climate talks in Madrid.

Wallace says a new approach is needed, to balance the influence of the coal industry with the needs of other Australians. Wallace, one of the first women to have a company listed in the Australian stock exchange, points out that women are skilled at this broader, multi-stakeholder approach.

Empowering women to steward the planet is the goal of Pollyanna Darling, founder of the Australian chapter of TreeSisters, a global organization that raises funds to reforest the tropics and encourages women to seek leadership roles in protecting trees, forests and the overall environment.

“We have a political environment that’s not particularly favorable to environmental protection and care of the earth, which, because a lot of our economy’s based on resource extraction,” Darling says of Australia.

“From a TreeSisters perspective, one of the things that we have made it our mission to do is to help human beings to remember who and what they really are. And a part of that is remembering that we ARE nature and that without a healthy, thriving earth, we actually have nothing.”

Claudia points out that the United Nations has put Sustainable Development Goal 13, climate action, at the top of the Global Agenda. All three of our guests say they hope, and even sense, that the wildfires will encourage stronger action to curb greenhouse gas emissions.

Actions you can take are proposed in this episode by Rob Galluzzo, from the Lion’s Share, a project co-founded by UNDP to encourage corporations to pay into a fund for conservation and environmental protection every time they use an image of an animal in their advertising. Mars Corp., the candy-maker, is a founding partner.

In addition, Pollyanna Darling urges everyone to plant trees in their community and support TreeSisters ( in its work restoring tropical forests.

Featured guests

Matthew England

Professor Matthew England is Deputy Director of the UNSW Climate Change Research Centre. In 2014 Prof England was elected a Fellow of the Australian Academy of Science and in 2016 a Fellow of the American Geophysical Union. Prof England’s research explores global-scale ocean circulation and the influence it has on regional climate, large-scale physical oceanography, ocean modelling, and climate processes, with a particular focus on the Southern Hemisphere. Using ocean and coupled climate models in combination with observations, he studies how ocean currents affect climate and climate variability on time scales of seasons to centuries. His work has made significant impact on the treatment of water-mass physics in models, on the methodologies of assessment of ocean and climate models, on our understanding of large-scale Southern Hemisphere climate modes, and on the mechanisms for regional climate variability over Australia.

Dr. Catriona Wallace

Based between the US and Australia, Dr Catriona Wallace is the Founder & Executive Director of Artificial Intelligence company Flamingo Ai, provider of Machine Learning technologies. Flamingo Ai is the second only woman led business ever to list on the Australian Stock Exchange. Catriona has been recognised as the Most Influential Woman in Business & Entrepreneurship (AFR) and as one of the country’s most eminent scientists by the Royal Institution of Australia. Catriona, an Adjunct Professor at the Australian Graduate School of Management, UNSW, is also a philanthropist, human rights activist and mother of five.

Pollyanna Darling

TreeSisters holds a piece of Pollyanna’s heart and she has been involved since it was a tiny seed. She volunteered for TreeSisters for 7 years before stepping into the core team. She is committed to playing her part in bringing our beautiful Earth back to thriving. Pollyanna has a project management, systems and entrepreneurial background, and also spent many years helping women live from their deepest wells of courage and have significant impact on the future of our planet.

Pollyanna is a mother of four boys, award-winning author, singer, passionate Earthlover, women’s empowerment facilitator, and loud laugher.

Dina Liberg

Swedish-born Dina graduated from the University of Oslo in Criminology and started her career as a Financial Advisor at the Norwegian bank DNB. But in 2012 she packed her bags and relocated to London in order to fulfil a long-held goal to work in the Music Industry. She first joined Warner Chappell as a Music Consultant before moving to Universal where she now works as a Key Account Manager with clients across the UK and Ireland. Dina is skilled in music supervision and provides music to an extensive network of clients among major broadcasters – such as the BBC and ITV – TV production companies and promo teams. But her role doesn’t stop there. She uses her creativity to come up with new album ideas, organise exciting events and find new ways to promote the production music industry.

Áine Tennyson

Áine Tennyson works as a Producer & Production Coordinator at Universal Production Music UK. Áine was recently at the helm of a rebrand for Focus Music, illustrating her creative flair and insight into the new look, feel and sound of the label.  After gaining her BMus in 2016 from University of Glasgow in Composition & Sonic Arts, Áine started her career as an intern at Universal Music Publishing. Whilst gaining a certificate in Music Production: Mixing and Mastering at Goldsmiths University in 2017, Áine continues her talents as a composer. Áine is a classically trained singer with a background in Irish Traditional folk music.

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Catriona Wallace (00:02): It’s like driving through something from a mad max movie or through an apocalypse. It’s something quite terrifying and extraordinary to experience.

Matthew England  (00:11):  We’re going to be seeing events like this as a routine part of Australia in summer.

Pollyanna Darling (00:16): We have a political environment that’s not particularly favorable to environmental protection and care of the earth, which because a lot of our economy’s based on resource extraction.

Catriona Wallace (00:27): What role do we, the technologists play in really now turning our smart tech towards climate change. We’re seeing the finance sector very reluctant to take on big fossil fuel projects. They know that the writing’s on the wall

Pollyanna Darling (00:44): When people actually get their hands in the earth and they come together with one another and they’re doing something constructive that that really can build a sense of resilience and connection to nature that has the power to be transformative.

Claudia (01:07): Welcome to the Global GoalsCcast.

Edie (01:09): The podcast that explores how we can change the world.

Claudia (01:12): This episode, Edie, we go to Australia to hear from Australians the story of their catastrophic wildfires.

Edie (01:19): s the climate heats up. A leading Australian scientist explains why this will be the shape of things to come for us all. We will share the horror, the lessons, and the message of the Australian wildfires right after this,

Michelle Cooprider (01:37): This episode of global goals cast is brought to you by MasterCard. MasterCard is dedicated to building an inclusive world in which the digital economy works for everyone everywhere. Thanks also to CBS news, digital and universal production music.

Aina Tennyson (01:55):  At universal music. We believe in diversity, so it’s definitely our responsibility to ensure that we develop opportunities for women to create music for a catalog.

Michelle Cooprider (02:05): And to Harman. The official sound of global goals cast.

Claudia (02:14): Welcome back. I’m Claudia Romo Edelman.

Edie (02:17): And Im Edie lush. Claudia, what a week. First of all, welcome back from Mexico. I am so glad that your mom’s okay.

Claudia (02:24): I know God that was horrendous. 21 days in intensive and intermediate care for a bad pneumonia, spending Christmas in the hospital, coming there like sleeping in the hospital bed, being totally concerned. Then now flying to New York to pack and then go to switzerland Edie! We’re going to Davos.

Edie (02:43): I know, Im excited to see you there next week. We’ve got a kickoff event on Monday together at hub culture celebrating the champions, achieving the global goals. I’m excited to talk about progress with you and we’ve got a panel together on Wednesday looking at the data around the sustainable development goals and impact.

Claudia (03:02): And this year is special for me edie because we’re bringing a US Hispanic delegation to Davos people that I’ve never been that represent tech and companies that should be heard by decision makers. So talking about Hispanics with other decision makers, talking about the sustainable development goals with decision makers and speaking of sustainable development goals. Edie. Today we’re discussing global goal number 13 and that is repeat after me climate actions. It is the secretary general of the United nations has put climate action at the top of the world’s to do list last year and this episode we will make clear why he did that.

Edie (03:44): Today, we’re going to take you inside a climate catastrophe, not something that may happen someday because of global warming, but something that happened and is still happening right now, at least in part because we are warming our planet,

Claudia (03:59): So let’s be very direct about this. These wildfires that have horrified the world are related to global warming. Let me repeat those wildfires that have horrified the world are related to global warming. 2019 was the hottest, driest year on record in Australia. Temperatures were 1.5 degrees Celsius above the average for the last decade of the 20th century.

Edie (04:24): That is so spooky because as you know, Claudia, 1.5 degrees is described by the UN as the upper limit of tolerable warming.

Matthew England  (04:33): I think there’s a huge, really very important message for everybody in the world. Looking at these fires.

Edie (04:39): This is Matt England, a professor of oceanography and climate at the university of new South Wales.

Matthew England  (04:45): This is a glimpse into our future. We only have to take warming levels of the planet to about three degrees Celsius, which we’re not far off. We’re only, we’re a third of the way to that warming. So once we take the world’s temperatures to three degrees Celsius above present day, the summer we’ve just had will be basically a normal summer event. And so we’re going to be seeing events like this as a routine part of Australian summer. If we take warming to this level, extreme heat summers will be even worse and it’s unimaginable to think what they would be like in terms of temperatures and heat waves and so on. So the lesson for me is this is a glimpse into our future. It’s a future that we can avoid by drastically reducing our emissions. I’m actually glad for the fact that these fires have got so much international focus because I think people need to look at these sorts of events and realize this is what’s in store for us more and more frequent as we keep warming the planet.

Edie (05:44): We’ll hear more from professor England later, but first we want to take you inside the experience of these fires inside the apocalypse. And I’m not the one who used the word apocalypse that description came from the owner of the farm where one of the first big fires started. Her name’s Catriona Wallace. Her family has owned both a farm and a seaside house South of Sydney for many, many years.

Catriona Wallace (06:13): My sister and I drove down and as we’re driving from Sydney for about 200 kilometers, we drove through bushland that is on the major highway that had been completely burned. It’s like driving through something from a mad max movie or through an apocalypse. It’s something quite terrifying and extraordinary to experience. It was black trees with a very strange colored leaves, which were maybe somewhere between a faun to a light red color leaves. And what we know that the gum trees do is when they are burnt and that they’re at a time of stress, the leaves change color from green to this light reddy color and then they drop their leaves onto the ground to insulate their roots. And then when we got to act community, and this is a place I’ve been going to for my whole life. So if 54 years, my grandfather had built this old beach house down just a hundred meters of the beach around 80 years ago. He was an old fisherman and it was a very special place. So my grandparents lived there. My mother had grew up as her beach house and holiday house and then, and I’ve been going there since since I was born, so very, very special memories. And as we drove towards the Rosedale turn off of the highway, we turned and both houses on either side of the street were completely demolished and they look like torn, crumpled, bent, corrugated iron with just nothing underneath. So the fires were so ferocious that they just burned everything and just left the corrugated iron crumpled tin. The smell is something very invasive. There’s smoke in the air, you couldn’t see more than maybe a hundred meters ahead of you because of the smoke. We then saw the fire had run right through our garden and our property. The greatest relief is that we saw that our house was still standing but within a completely black charcoaled, devastation. And I used the word apocalyptic because this exactly what it’s like. It’s like something nuclear has gone through and just burnt everything.

Claudia (08:40): Wow. That was moving. I could see it the way that she was describing it, so incredibly moving. Wow.

Edie (08:50): I know and I looked at her Facebook pictures and the fire comes right up to the edge of the house and it’s thanks to her neighbors who helped keep the fire from engulfing her house that she still has it. I mean it’s, it’s beyond.

Claudia (09:08): We asked professor England to say a bit more about how climate change contributed to the severity of these fires.

Matthew England  (09:15): No single weather event really can be linked to climate change in the way that many people would like us to make that link, but we can definitely talk about stacking the odds of these events higher and there’s no doubt whatsoever the Fire increased global temperatures, increased temperatures over Australia and more extreme phases of these modes of variability. We are increasing the odds of these events. The way the climate system works is there is always this randomness. We have weather events come and go. We have heat waves and then cold fronts that change that weather. The Bush fires that we have had this year are linked to two main weather and climate events. One has been this absolutely profound drought, unprecedented over the last couple of years over eastern Australia. There was so much fuel before the fires came along that all it really took was some extreme heat wave conditions to come along during summer and that triggered these fires. Once you have so much fuel there, it’s really just a matter of the right thunderstorms coming along to ignite the fires via lightning strikes.

Catriona Wallace (10:23): We’re used to drought but nothing as extreme as this. So not only if the fires destroyed the feed for the cattle, but the cattle were starving in any way. So now that we’ve lost so much of our pasture, we have to ship feed in for the cattle.

Claudia (10:42): Here’s Catriona again, talking about the impact of the drought and fire on her farm. She’s also starkly conscious of the emotional and financial impact on the community.

Catriona Wallace (10:55): And the mental health practitioner who was there with us yesterday said it’s at least 12 months that you should watch for signs of trauma post these fires. And then similar to us without the economic impact of the fires on our farm, which we may have to sell the cattle, we may have to destroy the cattle, we may not be able to run as a business anymore. So tutored, I see down at Rosedale, the South coast at this time of year should be a thriving tourist destination. There were no tourists, there was absolutely no tourists, there was the military, there were the police, there were the fire rescue workers and there was the trades people who are trying to fix things. So the businesses in these locations will also have an enormously difficult time to survive.

Edie (11:41): Claudia, Cat is the kind of guest that we could have on Global GoalsCast on any number of subjects. She’s an entrepreneur in artificial intelligence. And before the fires she was telling me she go on stage to give a keynote speech and she described three major issues that she saw facing the world AI, which is her day job, nuclear war, which recently seemed ever closer as tensions grew between the U S and Iran and climate change, which was suddenly engulfing her.

Catriona Wallace (12:13): My world in the last couple of weeks has come together with these three major crises presenting themselves all at once. So for me what I’m thinking through is what role do we, the technologists play in really now turning our smart tech towards climate change because I viscerally experienced this, now it is here and it is destructive.

Claudia (12:41): Katrina’s personal experience has shifted her focus on how artificial intelligence should be used.

Catriona Wallace (12:47): Now that I’ve been on the ground and walked through the fire zone, which is absolutely like a war zone for me. I’m much more interested in active AI. So whether it’s drones or whether it’s other climate detecting mechanisms or something that can actually be very hands on in the field, able to be doing useful things in addition to the analytics and the subject matter expertise that I’m already familiar with.

Claudia (13:15): Look Edie, this episode is feeling a bit grim and I have to remind you, this is the global goalscast. And I know being realistic is one of our trademarks, but so is being optimistic. We offer solutions, we celebrate champions making a difference and we want progress. And, you’re not giving it to me.

Edie (13:34): I know. I was actually wondering how long it was going to take you to remind me of that. I had a little bet with myself, but never fear. I’ve got you. We know their solutions. Remember our episodes with John Sterman of MIT and his interactive model of the climate.

Claudia (13:51): Si senora. We actually do know what to do, right? We need to drastically cut our dependence on fossil fuels, coal, oil, gas, and we need to be vigilant about the climate changes that are too late to stop so that we mitigate the challenge of rising tides and extreme weather.

Edie (14:10): Exactly. And Australia, I’m afraid to say it gets failing grades on both counts. The government of Australia continues to promote coal and the coal industry gives money to both political parties and the government was very slow to respond to the threat of the fires. A threat I might add that was predicted 10 years ago by a government study.

Claudia (14:32): I love Katrina’s reaction when you ask her what we could do about this. I think it’s a great page for more gender equity.

Catriona Wallace (14:40): There’s a part of me that knows that predominantly it’s the men running the show at the moment. My great interest is how do we mobilize women who perhaps can come at a different way of thinking about emerging tech climate change rather than a kind of a one stakeholder lens. We’re often good at having multi-stakeholder lens. So it’s not that we would ignore business or the economic importance of the mining companies or the coal companies, but we also then can hold in our minds and our policies and our strategies, all of the other stakeholders that are in fact as important or more important than this one key influence groups. So whether that’s community, whether that’s wildlife, whether that’s housing, whether that’s other businesses, and start building a multi-stakeholder approach to recovery. And then also a multi-stakeholder approach to climate change.

Edie (15:38): Sometimes Claudia, we talk about the Herculean effort that it’s going to take for the world to shift to carbon neutrality. But I’ve been having a think with my gender equality hat on and I think we need to rephrase it. I think it’s going to take a hippolytic effort.

Claudia (15:54): What, what are you talking about?

Edie (15:56): Okay. Stay with me. Hippolyta was the Amazon queen. So in the film recently, she was wonder woman’s mother. Powerful, not afraid to go to war. What I mean is we need to reframe the argument and bring women into the solutions.

Claudia (16:12): Uh, you are, a weird nerd, but I think I love it. Wonder woman is good. And her mother too, you know Edie, I told you that story, right? That wonder woman wasn’t allowed to become a UN ambassador because of the story. Crazy isn’t it? Because she was stereotyping women having to be sort of like naked and that was not the stereotype that we wanted women, women could be whatever and they didn’t have to be curvy and all that. And he was the first time that UN employees denied a UN ambassador to become true? There you go.

Edie (16:46):  Okay.

Claudia (16:47): So overall I’m sort of like buying to your hypothesis. I hope that you enjoyed that thought. Pollyanna Darling, the CEO of three sisters, Australia thinks along the same, very similar lines to you.

Pollyanna Darling (17:00): Women are some of the most impacted people by climate change, you can see that the way that the earth has been treated is very similar to the way that women have been treated under patriarchy. And women’s voices have been squashed for a very long time. And what we want to do is bring those voices forward because that will create more balance in the world. And if we have more balance in the world then we are not going to be in this situation that we are now where the earth has been plundered to the point that it’s becoming uninhabitable. We are a global network of women and men who are making it as normal to give back to nature as it currently is to take. And we do that in a couple of different ways. Firstly, through funding the reforestation of the global tropics. And the other thing that we do is support and encourage women into leadership in the local area around environmental issues and specifically trees and forests.

Pollyanna Darling (18:10): From a tree sisters perspective, one of the things that we have made it our mission to do is to help human beings to remember who and what they really are. And a part of that is remembering that we are nature and that without a healthy, thriving earth, we actually have nothing. So we depend on a healthy, thriving earth and there are people who think the environment is a sort of hobby or an interest or a silo of interest, but it’s actually is the thing that we all rely on for our life. So that reconnection and that remembering are really important to helping people find the motivation from a deep place within themselves to make change and advocate for change and restoring nature to thriving.

Claudia (19:10): We have made a point of speaking to Australians for this episode because part of their message to the world about climate is to put it bluntly, do not do what Australia has done and for that, again, professor Matthew England here,

Matthew England  (19:27): I’m deeply embarrassed to be an Australian citizen right now. I’m of course not responsible for the government that’s been elected and I’m not responsible for the denial of some politicians about the threats posed by climate change, but I can’t believe that I’m living on a continent where we’re seeing some of the worst impacts of climate change play out. At the same time, we have many people trying to dismiss that link. We’ve got people trying to argue that the science of climate change is in some way shaky and so I can’t believe we’re here in the year 2020 some 50 years since the first alarm bells were rung about ongoing greenhouse gas emissions. It’s a bizarre world to me to be in and I look across to other nations that are actually taking this problem more seriously and I wish we were there.

Edie (20:15): So we are left with a vital question. Australia has a special role. The world’s largest exporter of coal and a crucial country in the Glasgow climate summit later this year, are the wildfire is starting to shift attitudes in Australia?

Catriona Wallace (20:31): We do notice that the rhetoric is starting to change a bit only in the last say, week or two weeks when the fires have been so critical, particularly after the disastrous new year’s Eve that the government is saying now. And even the prime minister, Scott Morrison is saying that he believes that climate change is one of many factors that have caused the fires and this climate emergency. In this country the miners, the coal producers, the, the big industry bodies are still so powerful. It’s really them who I think have great sway and influence over the government. But what’s happened in this time beyond anything I’ve ever experienced is the incredible public backlash to the prime minister himself to the emergency minister, to the government.

Claudia (21:16): And as we have heard before, most recently in our last episode with the financial times, Gillian Tett, the finance sector is starting to shift its focus. Matthew England,

Matthew England  (21:28): We’re seeing them very reluctant to take on big fossil fuel projects. They know that the writing’s on the wall. We’re seeing coal mines that are being abandoned. We’re seeing banks moving away from financing that sector and once the money dries up to those sectors, once they lose their subsidies and lose the incredible handouts they’ve been given over the years from government and from the finance sector, we’re going to see a real change in the way we produce energy and those sectors that have been held back so far, the renewable sector in particular will surge.

Edie (22:02): You sound like an optimist at heart, is that right?

Matthew England  (22:05): Oh, absolutely. I can’t wake up in the morning without a view that something’s going to go right because um, it’s fun to be a scientist.

Edie (22:12): And where do you see the glimmers of hope that change will come?

Matthew England  (22:17): The numbers of people who get the science today compared to where we were in the 90s even or even the early two thousands. It’s really heartening to me to see the hate mail drying up to see the support for the science gathering momentum. I mean, I’ve got to say the recent school student marches and demonstrations have been absolutely life. You know, this has changed the conversation and I just think I’ve got so much admiration for the leaders of, I mean Greta Thunburg asking, you know, how dare you, how dare you do this to us, was absolutely breathtaking for me as a scientist. For me, that’s a, that’s a reason to be optimistic. You’re seeing the next generation so switched onto this topic.

Edie (23:03): We’ve heard about government and business, but Tree Sisters sees the importance of a more holistic hands on approach for everyone. Reconnecting with nature at the four.

Pollyanna Darling (23:15): I’ve thought about this a lot as you can probably imagine since the fire started here in September in Queensland about what is the response of tree sisters in this situation? What would be regenerative? What would be something that is based on creating a future for our children and our grandchildren and their grandchildren and so on that isn’t just a knee jerk reaction and that’s actually going to do things like build resilience, educate about the importance of trees, encourage people, to take that regenerative action together because that’s really, really important that we actually do things together. Giving money is fine and it’s great and it’s really needed, but I think when people actually get their hands in the earth and they come together with one another and they’re doing something constructive, that that really can build a sense of resilience and connection to nature that has the power to be transformative

Claudia (24:14): And later we will hear some actions from Pollyanna and tree sisters that you can take right now. Well, Edie, this has been incredible. First of all, what an incredible set of interviews right with Catriona. What an incredibly way of describing what Australians might be feeling and seeing. We’ve been talking about how much climate change is shifting, how much, you know, like we see young people getting involved, how we see Greta, how we see companies being more green and more conscious and so on. But at the end of the day, political wheel is the question and we need to make sure that we understand that none of the big changes that we need will come both from government. These are the decision makers that have to make that shift, that have to make that commitment that I have to feel out their promises. And so how are we going to make that happen? How many Greta’s do you need? How many Australian fires, wildfires? Do you need to make sure that the decision makers of the world are going to take action? Because that’s really the only thing that is going to make the shift.

Edie (25:22): I agree. And I think if you can break the link between conservatism and climate, I think we could see it happen. So there’s increasing evidence that being conservative doesn’t have to mean opposing climate action. Austria’s new conservative green coalition, I just heard the conservative prime minister say that controlling borders and taking action on climate are the two top priorities. There’s also a push in the United States to get Republicans to tackle climate change. I’m really interested in whether this will help give the Australian government a way to move.

Claudia (25:56): It’s time for the decade of action as a secretary general have said, but it all lies on the political wheel. At the end of the day, the budgets needed to take climate solutions are in the trillions of dollars and there is no company, no individual that can do it. Of course everything helps, but we need to get to that point in which all the parts are pushing, providing political pressures so that there is an international action on climate change.

Edie (26:27): I do think as we head into Davos, the other part that I’ve been seeing coming through that you and I have talked about as well is this whole idea around financing of fossil fuel industry and the risk that that brings. Really interesting to watch the fight in the United Kingdom around Barclays, there’s 11 pension and investment funds that are now filing a resolution, calling for Barclays to set clear targets to phase out services to energy companies that failed to align with the Paris climate goals. Now these funds manage more than 130 billion pounds worth of assets. So the vote is in May, the jury is out, but they, alongside Larry Fink’s letter, I think we’re seeing more of a push from the private sector too.

Claudia (27:14): Yeah, I love that. I mean like, it’s so fantastic that we’re having this episode coming right after with such a strong voices from Australia, but also coming right after Larry spanks letter. I mean, he is, he might be criticized that it’s only whatever percentage of his funding that he’s putting towards, you know, sustainability, but having such a strong bold messaging saying, I will only invest in companies that put sustainability and climate change forefront and these are the issues that are going to be durable in the longterm for longstanding investment. It’s massive, but we should not leave those things only to either governments or institutions. I love the story of, of Barclays as well, but individual actions, you know, like people have to understand how important it is that you, when you’re looking at, you know, politicians, you’re not only voting for what they say domestically you have to care about what Politicians are saying about climate change.

Edie (28:13): And I think you were talking about individual action. It’s not too far of a leap to take to talk about one of our previous champions. We’ve had news from the South pole, from our friend Robert Swan. What have you heard?

Claudia (28:26): Uh, one of our first episodes ever on the global goalscast was following Robert Swan and Barney Swan, 60 miles, 60 days, uh, 100. What was he dealing with that they were doing? 600 miles, 60 days through the crab assists where our friend Robert Swan actually failed last time to complete his journey because the changes of climate change have made in the ice on the Antartica that he has done before. So he gained back to the Antarctica, get to finish that journey, that 300 miles that he couldn’t do last time and he fell off and broke his hip in the last 40 miles. Barney, his son went down to finish his 40 miles. Robert Twan said that he is willing to go back to England to train because he wants to finish his journey and I quote him because I need to send a message that if I am making this effort being 64 years old, I’m finishing this. Everybody can make an effort for the planet.

Edie (29:29): I think the other thing that is useful to talk about is the whole issue around communication and the climate change, communication challenge. How do you motivate action with a message that you’re increasing the probability of something, even if that increases dangerous, it’s really hard to get your head around that risk, especially when we still see people including the media in Australia and elsewhere sowing doubt and this challenge we faced in this episode. There’s still a lot of evidence that talking about apocalypse demoralizes people and deters action. So how do we in the media or a scientist handle that?

Claudia (30:06): That’s absolutely right, Edie. There’s a climate change communication problem, so we would love to hear from our audience and get suggestions from you so that we can talk about it the next episodes. What would trigger your action and talking about actions Edie beyond saying good luck and well done to Robert Swan and Barney Swan for finishing that journey and sending again a message. Strong message. It is time for our facts and actions.

Edie (30:35): It is first up are facts to impress your mother in law around the dinner table.

Claudia (30:41): Fact number one, not that we have not said it enough, but here we goes. Climate change is real. Extreme events are becoming more common and more severe as we see it in Australia.

Edie (30:53): Fact number two, Justin from the world economic forum for the first time that they’ve done their survey of risks to come their 10 year outlook, the top five global risks that they see in terms of likelihood are all environmental.

Claudia (31:09): fact number three for all the talk last year, the level of carbon emissions still went up and it needs to be going down.

Edie (31:20): And now for our actions. First from our friend Rob Galluzzo, so he’s the founder of Lions Share, followed by Pollyanna Darling from the Tree Sisters.

Rob Galluzzo (31:31): Hi Claudia and Edie Rob Galluzzo here, from the Lions Share. The Lions Share is a new fund backed by the United Nations. It’s essentially a new system whereby brands can contribute to a fund every time they use an animal in their advertising. I live in Australia and I’ve just seen firsthand the devastation that’s unfolding before our eyes. Look, there’s three simple actions I guess that we need to take. The first is obviously there is a primary fundamental need to provide adequate aid to Aussies fighting for their lives and their properties. There are a lot of volunteer Bush firefighters and firees that really need most support. The second is to develop longterm solutions in new methods and technologies for fire resilience. And the third, I guess would be to support initiatives like the Lions Share. Hopefully there’ll be many more like it, but all around systemic change. If we can find, uh, opportunities for real systemic change in fighting climate change, but not just climate change, I guess the way the private sector, the United Nations and the conservation world can come together and really change the way we operate. I guess the last point would be be imaginative. Be compassionate and see what other systemic change we think we can put in place as people work better in harmony with the planet.

Edie (32:55): Two more from Pollyanna, and it won’t surprise you that she wants you to plant a tree!

Pollyanna Darling (32:59): Preferably a native tree that’s appropriate for where you are. That’s going to support the wildlife where you are. And the other is to grow your own forest through Tree Sisters. We’re planting in Madagascar and Nepal, Cameroon, India, Brazil, Kenya, West Papua and Mozambique and supporting some of the world’s poorest people and helping restore biodiversity and watersheds and so much more. And you can grow your own forest by going to our website tree and everything you need to do is there. We’ve got a beautiful way for you to keep track of how many trees you’re planting through your funding and it’s a really wonderful way to give back to the planet that gives us absolutely everything.

Edie (33:45): Thanks to Rob and Pollyanna for those actions.

Speaker 3 (33:49): Edie, Edie before we go we are going to hear from Dina Liberg and Aina Tennyson from universal music, which are our new sponsor and music partners for this. And we love them because they are supporting gender diversity in the production music world through their 100% her initiative.

Dina Liberg (34:14): You hear production music every day, whatever you know it or not in film and TV programs, radio advertising and the podcasts. The main difference between production music and commercial music is that production music is pre-cleared. That means that we own both the master and publishing rights. So it’s easy to clear the music for usage. At universal production music, we have over half a million of tracks, which is recorded in top studios around the world, such as Abbott road, British Grove, Capital studios, et cetera. We have a lots of clients that used to compose music specially for the TV programs, which can be very time consuming and expensive. So with our catalog we give them an alternative with high quality of tracks and a lot of Verity, you can find anything from rock and roll music to big scores. Imagine in the old days where it was only one TV channel and only one radio channel that needed music. How many do we have today? A lot. And in all of those new programs, music is demanded more than ever. And then we also have the podcast and the video on demand industry, which also requires music. This means that the production music market is actually bigger than an ever been before,

Aina Tennyson (35:38): At universal music. We believe in diversity, so it’s definitely our responsibility to ensure that we develop opportunities for women to create music for our catalog. Gender imbalance can be seen as early as when studying music. So in music technology, music production, mastering engineering, which has always been historically overrepresented by males. I think the opportunity for women is actually quite big. So if your music is in our global catalog, you have the potential to receive royalties from all over the world. And just recently universal music UK, won their women in music award for diversity. So we’re definitely on track, but we are equally aware that there’s a lot more work to do.

Dina Liberg (36:28): In general, we have a good balance of women at all levels, including senior positions at universal production music. Actually, our CEO of the entire publishing company is a woman and half of the music supervision team in the UK are female.

Dina Liberg (36:44): In the end of last year we partnered with, she said so, which is a global network of women in the music industry with the support of the global known prophet, She is the Music, to recruit female composers to work with us and to educate them about production music. The objective was to encourage female composers, producers and artists to submit their work to universal production music.

Aina Tennyson (37:07): So we ran a month long competition, which consisted of a global call for female identifying composers and producers to be part of the launch viral 100% her album, which is to be released in March, 2020 for international women’s day. We had over 450 submissions and initially we were expecting much less. So the outcome has been absolutely fantastic. We had women from all over the world submit their tracks, including the UK, the USA, France, Spain, Sweden, Netherlands from Brazil, Russia, Asia. We’ve now finally selected the final 10 amazing women to be part of this 100%Her album, we’re just finalizing the masters, which by the way had been mixed and mastered by female engineers. And once that’s all complete, we will be preparing the album to be cut to vinyl, which is also very exciting. Hopefully this is just the beginning of how we can continue to support talented women from all over the world who are seeking a career in the production music industry.

Edie (38:21): What a fantastic project. We look forward to sharing some of the 100% Her music and our next season.

Claudia (38:30): Thank you for listening to season three of global goals cast. We will be back soon with season four, so please like and subscribe via iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts and follow us on social media at Global GoalsCast.

Edie (38:44): And give us five stars and see you next time. See you next season. No, see you next week.

Claudia (38:50): See you next week. See you next season. Bye bye. Thank you so much. Bye.

Speaker 1 (38:58): Global goals cast was hosted by Edie lush and Claudio Romo Edelman. We are editorial gurued by Mike Oreskes, editing and sound production by Simon James. Our operations director is Michelle Cooprider and our interns Tina Pastore and Brittany Segora. Music in this episode was courtesy of universal production music, one of the world’s leading production music companies, creating and licensing music for film, television, advertising, broadcast, and other media including podcasts, original music by Neil Hale, Angelica Garcia, Simon James, Katie Krohn, and Andrew Phillips. This episode is brought to you by Mastercard, creating scalable solutions for sustainable and inclusive economic growth. Thanks also to CBS news digital and Harman . The official sound of Global GoalsCast.

Are your #SDGs looking glass half-full? Or half-empty?


It is that end-of-the-year time to take stock. Global GoalsCast doesn’t judge whether you’ve been naughty or nice. But co-hosts Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman do take a look at the world in 2019 and ask whether it is still getting better, or going to hell in a handbasket, as Edie so delicately framed it. She cites the failure of the climate talks and the rise of nationalism everywhere from the UK to Brazil. Things are not as bad as they seem, Claudia replies. In fact, the replenishment of the Global Fund to fight Malaria, Tuberculosis, and Aids shows that collective multilateral action is still possible. The world seems to be going in two directions at once, Edie and Claudia agree.

 To help sort things out Gillian Tett, founder of Moral Money at the Financial Times, joins the conversation. Some governments are dragging their feet, including the United States, Tett says. But Tett adds, “this was the year that business really stepped up.” The SDGs are a valuable checklist for business, she explains, and virtually every CEO she talks to wants to discuss the environment, corporate governance, and sustainability. This episode also features a special look back on some of the top Global GoalsCast conversations of the year, on everything from curbing global warming and eradicating poverty, to educating girls and aiding migrants.

 There is also a special Facts and Actions this episode, drawn from some of the best recommendations throughout the year.

 Laurie MacKenzie from our sponsor, Mastercard, describes how women and their families benefit from Mastercard’s digital pay project. “by educating and enabling these women they pass it on to their children and therefore that next generation grows up with a greater set of rights and education and aspirations.”

Image Credits: United Nations 

Featured guests

Gillian Tett

Gillian Tett serves as US managing editor, leading the Financial Times’ editorial operations in the region across all platforms. She writes weekly columns for the Financial Times, covering a range of economic, financial, political and social issues throughout the globe. 

Tett’s past roles at the FT have included US managing editor (2010-2012), assistant editor, capital markets editor, deputy editor of the Lex column, Tokyo bureau chief, and a reporter in Russia and Brussels. 

Most recently in 2016, Tett received honorary degrees from the University of Exeter in July and the University of Miami in May. In 2015, Tett was given an honorary doctorate from Lancaster University in the UK, one of the top ten British universities. In 2014, she was named Columnist of the Year in the British Press Awards and was the first recipient of the Royal Anthropological Institute Marsh Award. Her other honors include a SABEW Award for best feature article (2012), President’s Medal by the British Academy (2011), being recognized as Journalist of the Year (2009) and Business Journalist of the Year (2008) by the British Press Awards, and as Senior Financial Journalist of the Year (2007) by the Wincott Awards. In June 2009 her book Fool’s Gold won Financial Book of the Year at the inaugural Spear’s Book Awards. 

Tett’s latest book The Silo Effect, published by Simon & Schuster in September 2015, looks at the global economy and financial system through the lens of cultural anthropology.

Dr. Narasimha D. Rao

Dr. Narasimha D. Rao is an Asst Professor of Energy Systems at the Yale School of Forestry and Environmental Studies. He also is a Senior Research Scholar at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis in Austria. Dr. Rao’s research examines energy transitions, climate change and economic and resource inequality. He is particularly interested in how climate change and mitigation policies impact poverty around the world. He is a contributing author to the IPCC’s Sixth Assessment Report, and the recipient of the European Research Council (ERC) Starting Grant for a project entitled Decent Living Energy – which examines the energy needs and climate impacts of poverty eradication in select emerging economies. He received his PhD from Stanford University in Environment and Resources, and has two Masters from MIT in Technology Policy and Electrical Engineering.

Laura MacKenzie

As Senior Vice President of Global Prepaid for Mastercard, Laura is responsible for developing, executing, leading and adapting the global product strategy for Mastercard’s core prepaid products. In addition, she is responsible for driving product solutions to deliver Mastercard’s commitment to the World Bank to include 500 million people into the formal economy by 2020 through the development and deployment of innovative products and delivery channels.

Prior to this role, she spent 12 years leading Mastercard’s US Merchant acceptance for core merchant verticals. Mackenzie began her career in fashion with luxury global brands Ralph Lauren, Ann Klein and Nicole Farhi before making a move into the financial realm with South African start up joint venture e-commerce companies. She has spent many years living and working overseas in London, Barcelona and Johannesburg.

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of

Special thank you to:


Gillian Tett: 00:02 This was a year that business really stepped up to the plate and said they were going to get involved. I have never seen a situation where almost every single CEO and C-suite member I have met wants to talk to some degree about environmental social governance issues.

Edie Lush: 00:19 We do know that the 2020s are going to be absolutely critical. The UN science consensus has said that emissions have to start coming down and fast right now by 7% a year. Last year they went up.

Gillian Tett: 00:31 Unfortunately, we’ve seen some governments come out and show that they’re dragging their feet like the American government and we haven’t seen a clear cut consensus amongst the leaders to act on a political sense

Speaker 2: 00:43 In this work today. What is required for just the most basic needs for people that it’s probably not the bulk of the energy needs that’d we consumed. More of the energy we consume is actually serving consumption that potentially could be reduced quite significantly without reducing human wellbeing.

Claudia Edelman: 01:02 The world is indeed going into two directions and I’ve heard that from a lot of people that are looking at 2019 as a mixed bag.

Claudia Edelman: 01:18 Welcome to the Global Goalscast!

Edie Lush: 01:20 The podcast that explores how we can change the world.

Claudia Edelman: 01:24 This episode, we take a final look at 2019 and I look forward to the decade of the 2020s.

Edie Lush: 01:31 That’s right. This is our holidays special! Do you hear the jingle bells? We are going to hear some of our favorite moments from Global Goalscast this year, including the most interesting facts and actions our partners have offered you.

Claudia Edelman: 01:46 Yes, and for that reason, I brought my very special voice, my sexy voice for this episode. So in this episode we’ll ask the question that I know the answer to. Is the world getting better.

Edie Lush: 01:59 Or like your voice? Is it going to hell in a hand basket. or maybe a bit of both?

New Speaker: 02:05 Not in reality. Edie. That is complicated because even if you’re like a super optimist like me, there are days when it doesn’t feel that good. Actually it might feel bad. So to help us think about the year 2019 and about the years to come, we will have a very special guest. One of our very favorite visitors here at the Global Goalscast. We will tell you who that is and crack open our holiday cheer right after this…

Sponsors: 02:35 This episode of Global Goalscast is brought to you by MasterCard. MasterCard is dedicated to building an inclusive world in which the digital economy works for everyone everywhere. By educating and enabling these women, they pass it on to their children and therefore that next generation grows up with a greater set of rights and education aspirations. Later in this episode, you’ll hear how MasterCard’s digital wage project is helping women and their families. Thanks also to CBS News Digital and Universal Production Music and to Harmon, the official sound of Global Goalscast.

Claudia Edelman: 03:21 Welcome back. I’m Claudia Romo Edelman in my new sexy voice.

Edie Lush: 03:26 And I am Edie Lush and later drum roll. We’re going to have a very special guest. It’s going to be Gillian Tett from the Financial Times.

Claudia Edelman: 03:36 It’s such a joy to have Gillian with us. We don’t really think of Gillian as a guest. More like family.

Edie Lush: 03:43 Yeah, because moral money was, she launched this year for the FT. Seems mostly simpatico to the work that we’re doing here. It’s kind of like Global Goalscast, but with charts…

Claudia Edelman: 03:54 And in pink. And so 2019 has been quite a year I would say. Edie, we’re going to break it down for you and give your end of year forecast for where the world is headed on. Spoiler alert, I do not think that things are nearly as bad as they seem. We are not going to hell in a hand basket, Edie!

Edie Lush: 04:13 What about being on the highway to hell? I’m actually tempted to get you to sing that for me, but maybe with your throat the way it is. I’m not going to, but the failure of the climate talk did not inspire hope for me sitting here in London, so we’re going to wrestle with all that and a lot more. But what kind of year was 2019 here at global goals cast, have a listen to some of our high points.

Greta Thurnberg: 04:46 How dare you have stolen my dreams, my childhood with your empty words.

Paul Polman: 04:55 But at the end of the day, it’s not about solving climate change. At the end of the day, it’s giving a decent life to everybody on this planet earth.

Speaker 8: 05:05 The world’s human population is a subject that was at the forefront 30 40 years ago when many people said it’s the biggest problem for the world. Since then we’ve learned, no, it’s not the biggest problem for the world. What counts is not the raw number of people. What counts is their total consumption rate. It’s becoming increasingly impossible to have a stable world with big differences in standards of living around the world and the only stable outcome. It’s going to be a world with much more equal standards of living around them.

Speaker 7: 05:38 What time to set up our library and we asked the children to draw a computer and they could not even fathom what a computer was.

New Speaker: 05:45 As long as you have access to connectivity and now we’re seeing more and more conductivity in the developing world, it is possible to actually access lots of computing power as long as you can pay for it. Lots of storage, more data, and in fact these software tools that allow you to do machine learning and do AI.

Claudia Edelman: 06:01 One of the big red flags that I have is how AI particularly could accentuate exclusion.

New Speaker: 06:09 This is the thing that worries me most, which is that we’d get a set of policy and guidance developed by a bunch of white men in Silicon Valley that tries to speak to the world.

Edie Lush: 06:18 I think Micheal Chui called them male and pale.

New Speaker: 06:20 There you go, I’ll steal that. But that same technology is something that we’re using to detect schools. We can pull a school out of a satellite image, for example, in Liberia where we can see through machine learning where schools are and that lets us understand where to send equipment, supplies, material and teachers in a way that we wouldn’t if we didn’t have that data.

Speaker 10: 06:40 So for the first time this year, we got to celebrate international day of the gal with them and we give some computers and visceral coding lessons and getting to see that they have not put themselves in this tiny box that the world puts the mean that dreams are quite big. It’s very inspiring.

New Speaker: 06:59 It doesn’t matter that I’m a refugee, that is only a status, but it’s never written on my face. Never written anything of mine is never going to examine my destiny because I’m going to write my destiny. I’ll write my own story.

New Speaker: 07:10 Invest in these girls to see them differently. Not just an object of government, but see them as women who can actually do something with their life and give them jobs and skills and give them their ability back.

Speaker 10: 07:22 If you use the term global feminism, you understand feminism all around the world. It is not only from a Western perspective, you know that the facts are so outrageous, so extreme. The disempowerment is so extreme.

Ibrahim Conde: 07:42 The world doesn’t understand that we move because of reasons that we can’t handle and people tend to follow what the media tells about migrants and refugees are seen as people that’s come in to steal jobs, criminals, and so as a result, no one knows what our actual stories are. The stories of migrants in Africa, I think should be told more.

New Speaker: 08:05 With a place of open. I’m also providing training, showing some youth that… That are interested in computers and computer sciences. I see myself as a peacemaker and they dream of a place where we are able to, to live free of children going into um, groups like the way I did.

Speaker 2: 08:30 I always see it as a joke that in the DRC when you take your tomato, you wash your tomato you throw the water, you come a month after you have a tomato plant. But it is true. It’s not a joke. If a man is brought to the conflict, I would be ready to go back to DRC in a few years time. Not to be distributing food, but to be buying food from the DRC.

Speaker 13: 09:02 The world has exist 45 million centuries. But this is really the first century when one species, the human species can determine the planet fate. We use more resources and we are having a heavy footprint which is affecting the biosphere and affecting the climate.

New Speaker: 09:21 You developed countries, you created this problem, you have to cut your emissions. We developing nations, you cannot tell us that we can’t do what you did. And I showed them that under that scenario, Shanghai would be almost certainly inundated. Shenzhen would be inundated and at that point I said, so what does this mean? And what I heard translated in my earpiece was we have to leave the past in the past.

Paul Polman: 09:54 You may say I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one. I think what we’re really seeing and as well to as many people are dreaming for a better wealth than we have currently.

Valerie Keller: 10:02 you want to change the trajectory of kind of the collective behavior, sometimes you can actually just shift by the murmuring of a few birds, right? To start to fog starts to move in a different direction.

Speaker 1: 10:10 Sure. If you wanted to go fast, go alone. If you wanted to go far, go together.

Edie Lush: 10:16 Jonathan Franzen just the other day said, we should just give up. It’s over.

New Speaker: 10:20 If you believe as he does that it’s too late, that people are never going to learn to cooperate. You are going to get to be right because you’re not going to do a darn thing about it. And so do you want to be right or do you want to make a difference? It’s time to fight. This is not going to be easy, but it’s going to be worth it. [Transition Music]

Claudia Edelman: 10:46 Wow! That brought back a lot of memories, Edie.

Edie Lush: 10:49 Right? So good.

Claudia Edelman: 10:50 13 episodes, 14 with this one, our audio genius Simon James was there for every one of them and created that amazing review, that nostalgia. That was amazing.

Edie Lush: 11:03 Right.

Claudia Edelman: 11:04 All right, let’s start analyzing the year. Let’s start with global political landscape.

New Speaker: 11:09 So I felt like we were moving in two directions at once in 2019 it’s a little bit like that finger game. I don’t know if it’s Mexican or Chinese. I used to buy them when I went to Tijuana. Like you put your fingers in and then you both pull, yeah, they’re Mexican. They’re called atrapanovios, which is basically like a boyfriend catcher.

Edie Lush: 11:29 Oh my god.

Claudia Edelman: 11:30 It’s meant to be a toy for girls. So you put it on the finger of the boy you like and then you pull and there is no way he can skate until he gives in.

Edie Lush: 11:39 So what do you think about my analogy? Is that the right one?

Claudia Edelman: 11:42 Well, I think that the world is indeed going into two directions and I’ve heard that from a lot of people that are looking at 2019 as a mixed bag. On the one hand, there’s never been more wealth, more health, more people living in decent lives, eliminating extreme poverty. As a former secretary general, my former boss, Ban Ki-Moon said we are the first generation that can eradicate extreme poverty and that is amazing.

Edie Lush: 12:11 And at the same time, pulling the other way there is spreading discontent. We’re seeing rising political movements in the middle East, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon.

Claudia Edelman: 12:19 You almost moved to the middle East, right?

Edie Lush: 12:23 I’ve been there several times and we’ve also seen a new nationalism or even nativism infecting places like the US China, Brazil, India, Eastern Europe, and of course Russia. Hard to call it new there. I live in the UK and we just had yet another election. And I would argue that the union of the United Kingdom is the biggest loser at this last election because nationalism has risen in every country including Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Claudia Edelman: 12:51 And I don’t think that this is going to stop. All signs are saying that these will continue worsening and I do think that that sense of, I don’t believe that the system is working and particularly governments are inefficient and unethical is going to probably hurt multi-lateralism massively.

Edie Lush: 13:13 And we saw the failure of multi-lateralism of course, this last weekend at Cop-25 in Madrid, but we are the optimists and we have to remind ourselves that multi-lateralism isn’t dead. Even at this time of isolationism, there was a massive multi-lateral victory that many people, including me in fact missed. I didn’t realize until I read Mark Suzman of the Gates foundation who wrote an article the other day where he said the biggest news no one paid any attention to was the replenishment of the global fund to fight AIDS, tuberculosis, and malaria. In October, the global fund secured $14 billion of new funding.

Claudia Edelman: 13:54 YooHoo!

New Speaker: 13:54 Remember Sue Desmond Hellman earlier this year,

Sue Hellman: 13:58 it literally is impossible for me to overstate how much global fund and Gavi have contributed to everything we celebrate in global health. I’ll give you just one fact. Since 1990 under five mortality has been cut in half. It is not at all an overstatement to say, if not for the global fund for AIDS, TB, and malaria, and Gavi for vaccines for the poorest children of the world. The world would have never seen that kind of gains.

Claudia Edelman: 14:28 Yes, yes. This shows how important political will is, I Edie as you might recall, I was part of two replenishments when I was working for the global fund to fight AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria. And I tell you the newest one really was carried by president Macron in a way that he put his political will behind it. He made sure that France was pushing harder, raises money. He brought, you know, like Europe, he brought his political world everywhere. Governments, philanthropists, business got together in Leon. Perhaps that’s the new multi-lateralism.

Claudia Edelman: 15:10 So we start here because the greatest challenge to achieving the global goals is not technological or even economic. It’s political. We have the resources and the tools to do most of what’s needed and yet we aren’t doing it.

Edie Lush: 15:23 So we need our smartest thinking caps to help sort us out, which is why we’ve invited Gillian Tett back and it’s not just for the very special studio eggnog.

Claudia Edelman: 15:33 Well, here in the studio we have the Mexican Ponche with rum that Gillian and I will start enjoying as soon as we are out of there. So Gillian, what’s your take on political landscape? 2019.

Gillian Tett: 15:45 Well, I’ll take any kind of alcohol and studio these days. I think we need it because there’s been plenty of depressing stuff in the last year. Unfortunately. We’ve seen some governments come out and show that they’re dragging their feet like the American government and we haven’t seen a clear cut consensus amongst the leaders to act on a political sense. However, this was the year that business really stepped up to the plate and said they were going to get involved with an extraordinary number of commitments and involvement from corporate leaders and financial sector leaders. And that’s really potentially going to be a game changer. Whether that turns into action after the brave words remains to be seen and that’s going to be a key theme for 2020 but what is encouraging is that even if governments have prevaricated or become split . Business have become much more unified, a much more proactive. And do you think that they are ready? Well, mobilizing business in my view requires really a sort of four-part strategy. First, they have to wake up and recognize that they actually have a duty to the wider world other than just the shareholders. And that has definitely happened this year. If you look at things like the business round table and the statement they made about stakeholder purpose or stakeholder commitments, that’s very significant.

Gillian Tett: 17:02 Secondly, business has to have a framework to talk about what kind of action it could or should take. And I must say I think the sustainable development goals have been an extraordinarily successful tool that many businesses have used to really frame that discussion that you can criticize the SDGs of being too cumbersome and complex, but for business it provides a wonderful checklist to talk to each other with. Thirdly, they have to start actually putting their money where their mouth is in relation to the SDGs and actually doing things and we’re starting to see that action. There’s a lot of impediments where they are at least starting to move, but fourthly, business has to recognize the limits of their ability and that means they need to be very clear about what the policy sector has to do rather than them and also where there are areas that actually a better performed by NGOs rather than profit-seeking enterprises. Again, I think there is action on that front, but getting the three legs of that stool to work together, the government, the NGOs and business is going to be another key theme for 2020

Edie Lush: 18:11 Before we go any further, let’s take a quick break to hear another story from our sponsor MasterCard on how they are making the digital economy work for everyone.

Sponsors: 18:24 I know that women are important to MasterCard. I’ve spoken to so many of the amazing women that work for MasterCard. I wonder in your words why it’s important that you and MasterCard helped to benefit women. Women, especially in emerging markets are significantly more at risk than their male counterparts. They’re especially more at risk when they’re paid in cash wages. They have less control of it. They’re at greater risk of being pickpocketed. They can be mugged on their way home. In these factory towns, everybody knows which Friday is pay day. They know exactly the journey that people are taking. Some of these women travel by bus or train or walk for hours to get to work in some countries. It’s also common, as I’ve said earlier, for women to just hand over their wages to the men in their lives, but we’ve allowed them and we’re helping them with careful training on how to talk to their families about digital wages. We’ve also seen a dynamic shift in some households in which those women get more of a say in how the home finances are managed. And we also know that because women are so focused on their children and the next generation by educating and enabling these women, they pass it on to their children and therefore that next generation grows up with a greater set of rights and education and aspirations. [Transition Music] Smallholder farmers around the globe are equally, uh, in emerging markets, generally still in cash based ecosystems. So we have partnered as we’ve done in the garment sector with large commodities players and are working with them to digitize payments out to small holder coffee farmers in places like Chiapas, Mexico and outside of Bogota, Columbia. And we’re also now looking to Western Africa. So to take the cash operations out of the supply chain for small holder farmers in fact allows them to reap a more full value for their cash crop as it goes to market than they are when they have to stop through middlemen along the way. [inaudible]

Edie Lush: 20:48 Thanks to Laura McKinsey from our sponsor, MasterCard. Now back to our end of year review.

Claudia Edelman: 20:57 So the second thing that we want to discuss about 2019 is inequality. Inequality. That seems to be the most important driving force for anger and for this trust and for fear. We see not only the widen gap on money, but it’s also access to technology and to education. So inequality has to be addressed. Inequality is bringing people to wonder, is this system working for me? Is capitalism really gonna ever be helpful? Is globalization ever gonna touch my wallet? And my home is democracy really a system that would allow me to thrive? The.

Edie Lush: 21:36 UNDP Claudia said very much the same thing just the other day. Inequality is the force driving social discontent. In fact, Achim Steiner said,

Achim Steiner: 21:46 What was one sufficient then need to measure per capita income is simply no longer adequate in capturing inequality in the 21st century. The capabilities approach, the kind of educational opportunities we have, the families we are born into. All this begins to define our life’s journey. And as we look towards addressing the increasing tensions around inequality and development choices and outcomes, you also need to move beyond averages. Simply having a per capita GDP measurement tool is not adequate and we have to move beyond today because the advent of new technologies, the threat of climate change are also emerging as major drivers of inequality in the 21st century…

Claudia Edelman: 22:25 Which is fascinating Edie because the sustainable development goals, the SDGs created a broad definition of equality five years ago and it was not just wealth or income but clean water, electric power, education for boys and girls and responsible consumption. The way that Jared Diamond told us earlier this year,

Jared Diamond: 22:46 Consumption rates meaning consumption rates of water, fuel and other resource and metals in the developed world on the average about 32 times those in the poorest countries and that means that one American citizen has the impact of the world. 32 Kenyans. I mentioned specifically Kenyans because there are many Americans who feel indignant and concerned about the growing population of Africa and yes, it’s a tragedy for Africa, but as far as the impact on the world is concerned, 50 million Kenyans are equivalent to 1.7 million Americans can is trivial for its impact on the world,

Edie Lush: 23:30 The ultimate inequality. That goes to the heart of what I was talking about with professor Narasimha Rao.

Claudia Edelman: 23:36 He’s so cool. He’s the professor of energy system, right?

Edie Lush: 23:39 Yeah. At my Alma mater, Yale university, he’s been looking at how much energy it will take to lift the remaining 700 million extremely poor people, including those 14 million Kenyans living on less than a dollar 90 a day. His answer is encouraging.

Narasimha Rao: 23:57 What we found in general in principle is that the needs of poverty eradication are relatively small compared to the total energy demand in these countries. Even in a country like India where 15 to 80% of people lack any of these dimensions of decent living standards, which indicates that the bulk of energy use today is really serving more the affluence in the middle class services such as driving in automobiles and flying and more kind of conspicuous luxury consumption, but not so much meeting basic needs. And this is increasingly the case as you move towards middle income countries like Brazil and South Africa. And so that provides more evidence that in this world today what is required for just the most basic needs for people. That is probably not the bulk of the energy needs that be consumed at more of the energy we consume is actually serving consumption that potentially could be reduced quite significantly without reducing human wellbeing.

Edie Lush: 24:57 And he echoes Diamond’s point that as we become more affluent, we become more wasteful.

Narasimha Rao: 25:03 Material resources are serving a lot of nod materials needs such as social status, acceptance in society, and we need to move away from that because that’s reflects a certain amount of resource use and environment and degradation that is not really necessary for people to flourish.

Edie Lush: 25:23 Gillian, can we have a world that’s more equal that uses less carbon?

Gillian Tett: 25:28 Well, that is one of the big questions right now because as a tremendous contradictional irony in this whole inequality debate, on the one hand groups inside Western countries are talking a lot about inequality and that’s driving populism, but of course the level of inequality between countries have actually been shrinking in the last decade, which is actually good news overall. Now in theory that would imply that a lot of the emerging market in developing countries should feel less angry about being asked to do some heavy lifting and when it comes to climate change in practice, however many of them are arguing quite correctly that it seems somewhat unfair for the developing world to lecture them about the need to potentially curb missions and maybe hurt that growth while the developed world has had already had the benefits of developing on the back of a lot of carbon emissions. So that’s going to be very tough in the next year ahead. But perhaps there’s another thing to think about which is the idea of reverse innovation because what was thought and to see is a wave of innovation in the emerging markets in relation to climate change and other big social challenges where are taking out small innovative ideas, which are often very, very cheap because they have to be developed for poor countries, which sometimes actually leapfrog some of the big expensive ideas being developed in the West. And increasingly we’re starting to see trickle back where ideas developed in an emerging markets come into the West and start to solve some of the climate change problems or at least deal with some of the issues, even though they’ve come out of poorer economies and tougher conditions.

Paul Polman: 27:15 At the end of the day, it’s not about solving climate change. At the end of the day, it’s giving a decent life to everybody on this planet earth.

Edie Lush: 27:23 That was Paul Polman from our episode about his new firm. Imagine. But of course we do need to avert global warming. So Claudia, tell me a little about when you were at the UN in 2015 and how the SDGs and the climate agenda came together.

Claudia Edelman: 27:39 Well, they were separate animals. So there were the sustainable development goals that took forever to be created five years. And you know the consensus of 193 countries getting to agree on those 17 goals. And meanwhile you had the Paris Accords that were signed and getting ready and there was a realization that one couldn’t exist without the other and they were put together under the 2030 agenda for sustainable development goals and climate change. And that’s why there was so much debate about whether to call this the 2030 agenda of the or the SDGs. But now that they came together, climate is not only part of it, it’s just that as a center of it, um, it is urgent and that’s why the discussions of the COP are so disappointing.

New Speaker: 28:25 Either we stopped this eviction to go all our efforts to tackle climate change will be doomed.

Claudia Edelman: 28:32 People had the expectation that action was going to take place and that you will going to see the decision makers taking decisive actions towards climate change. And I do think that there’s a consensus that there was a disappointment, but like the discussions of decision makers which by the way actually emphasizes even more the point that we have about like governments are failing the expectations of people.

Edie Lush: 28:57 Yeah. And I’d say that to say it was a disappointment is like the biggest understatement of the year because we do know that the 2020s are going to be absolutely critical. The UN science consensus has said that emissions have to start coming down fast right now by 7% a year. Last year they went up. So is that even possible when we can’t get governments to agree on what to do?

Gillian Tett: 29:21 It was indeed a big disappointment because of those ever time that we need to get the world on board and all the political leaders on board together to tackle climate change. It really is now if you’re looking for silver lining, so there are two silver linings. Firstly, the very fact that the governments have not pulled together at cohesively might just… Might spur more consumer protest and action and more pressure on companies to try and push for meaningful change and if so, that would be good. Second, possible silver lining is that the US has obviously been a difficult stumbling block in the whole process of getting major governments on board. However, one big theme I’m going to be looking out for in 2020 is to see whether the Republican party starts to change its language or mood music on climate change at all because although Donald Trump has very clearly said he’s not interested in talking about climate change, the reality is actually a growing number of senior Republicans who are pretty concerned and they won’t use the word climate change because that’s such political dynamite and the US. Landscape right now. However, if you start hearing phrases like environmental protection Conservancy, energy self-sufficiency, pollution being tossed around a lot, that’s a sign that actually the tone is starting to change. Even if the word climate change is still taboo.

Edie Lush: 30:48 I remember when I was in Paris for COP-21 it was really the French leadership that along with Christiana Figueres who really steered such a successful COP. These thoughts from the news that I read. I wonder if you got a sense of what it was that went wrong this time round.

Gillian Tett: 31:08 There wasn’t really clear cut leadership unfortunately and there really is a growing divergence in the goals and the degree to which people think hitting those goals is realistic or not sadly

Claudia Edelman: 31:24 The fourth topic that we wanted to pick, which probably is at the heart and the soul of what we are here at the Global Goalscast, which is the growing movement for change and this is how we want to look ahead and look at businesses coming on board and jumping into the bridge of purpose and sustainability. I think that that’s a great thing that happened is 2019 which is a great movement for change.

Gillian Tett: 31:51 Well, I would say if you’re looking for signs of change, firstly in the course of the last year I’ve spoken to masses of CEOs because that’s kind of what I’m paid to do in my job at the financial times and I’ve been doing that for years. I have never seen a situation where almost every single CEO and C-suite member I have met, wants to talk to some degree about environmental, social and governance issues. Never seen that before. Now the sign of change is that we at the financial times launched something called moral money, this newsletter and platform. Whew, that’s going gangbusters. I mean, you know, it’s got the highest open rate of any newsletter we’ve launched because our readers are really, really interested in this kind of content, which going to be pretty hard to imagine a year or two ago and lost tiny vignette is that Brussels recently issued a hefty roadmap for green finance, but it’s also issued a very big taxonomy of how you define green bonds and green products, although the rest of the world, particularly America, use toa shrug when Brussels did things and say, Oh, let’s just ignore what Brussels is doing.

Gillian Tett: 33:03 Increasingly I’m hearing people say this could end up being like the GDPR, the green world. And by that I mean Brussels came out a couple of years ago and drew up these very tight regulations for the tech sector and social media platforms, which initially only applied in Europe and people kind of ignored outside Europe, but actually then ends up setting the standards globally and affecting any company with a global operation. So what Brussell’s doing in the world of green right now could end up again having a real impact in the next year and how American companies and other companies and financial group think about green issues and essentially raise the standards in ways that people weren’t expecting.

Edie Lush: 33:43 I was amazed to see that Europe actually pledged to be carbon neutral by 2050 now that was the news that came out last week ahead of the rather disappointing COP. Gillian, I wonder if you can talk me through something that I think is going to be an emerging issue next year, which is this idea of what’s the role of central banks in climate change? We now know that Mark Carney is the Secretary General’s advocate, an Emissary on climate change, but there’s a real argument or debate or discussion starting about what the role is. Yes, climate risks should be looked at by central banks, but should central banks have their mission creep into shifting capital away from polluters towards greener companies? So those are the corporate bonds that they hold. I wonder if you have a view on that.

Gillian Tett: 34:35 Well, I certainly do have a view because it’s going to be one of the hot potatoes of 2020 a bit of background Mark Carney, the governor, the bank of England set up this group known as network for greening the financial system. No prize for snappy memorable name.

Claudia Edelman: 34:50 La papa caliente!

Gillian Tett: 34:54 Exactly. But anyway, at the end GFS was set up between the bank of England, bank of France and the central bank of China. Interestingly enough, about two or three years ago, and initially they just had six members. They’ve now got three dozen members. Almost every central bank in the advanced economies has joined with a notable exception of Russia. And guess what? The United States, yes, grown. Although the U S actually may end up joining, although the Federal Reserve hasn’t joined. The San Francisco Fed is a advisory member and I wouldn’t be surprised if the US Fed doesn’t join soon as well. But anyway, they all looking at what they can do with green. And the best way to understand this is to use as a three parts schema. I often use with moral money, our platform at the FT, which is the recognize that there are three incentives driving finance and business in this respect. Some companies want to actively change the world, some want to do no harm to the world and some want to do no harm to themselves. And central banks certainly want to do no harm to themselves and they want to do no harm to the financial systems they oversee. And in that respect they want to make sure that they are properly measuring the climate risk threats to banks and insurance companies, asset portfolios. So that’s very important and that’s what they’re definitely stepping up and everyone agrees they have to do that and they also have to look at their own portfolios. Second thing is doing no harm to the world, I. E. not backing ventures and enterprises, which are obviously dangerous and risky and damaging and there’s a bit more controversy around that. But most central banks these days think they probably shouldn’t be buying, say, coal mine bonds or something like that that are actively going to harm the environment. The really controversial part is about actively trying to change the world. And there’s actually a lot of unease in central bank circles about the idea that central banks actively trying to finance say renewable energies or anything which has a wider social environmental purpose as a proactive direct goal because that’s seen as meddling too much in politics.

Edie Lush: 37:09 Now I want to get you guys to give me your predictions. Will 2020 be the year we see movement to achieve the SDGs coalescing in a way that makes success likely or are the forces of delay, fragmentation and short term profit too powerful. Claudia, what do you think?

Claudia Edelman: 37:26 I actually think that 2020 will be the year in which a lot of the voice, a lot of the tagline will be about action. So it will be the decade of action coming from the coalition of, you know, like the United Nations and partners. But also I think that young people are tired of listening to stuff without saying action. So I think that CEOs, ideally we’ll be talking more about the actions that they’re doing just about talking the talk. My second prediction about 2020 is that inclusion will become bigger. I think that I’ve seen it now with diversity and inclusion and overall the world being browner, more feminine with a bigger heart and so inclusive environment will become more important. Companies will have to manage expectations about what they can and they cannot do.

Edie Lush: 38:16 Gillian, what about you? What’s your prediction for 2020?

Gillian Tett: 38:19 Well, here are three things to watch. Firstly, accountants will become increasingly important and yes, I know the activists and you know philanthropists and people who work at the UN tend to go, Oh my goodness, may accounting how boring. But we’re starting to see the breed of warrior accountant who are trying to force companies and investment groups to actually measure the impact of climate change on portfolios. And that really matters because once that becomes revealed, there’s more pressure on companies to act. Secondly, I think we’re going to see the Japanese Olympics 2020 Olympics. See Japan play a growing leadership role in trying to push forward the SDGs on the global stage and put a lot of pressure on companies to actually do things. Some of it will be greenwashing, but I do think we’re going to see a lot more action there. And thirdly, I think pressure on the investment managers and the investment companies is going to keep rising because there is a new generation of wealthy millennials who have money and who are demanding that wall street names in Switzerland and London actually take action and it’d be lovely to think that it’s kind of mass market common people who drive change in financial products. In reality, it’s the ritual, the super rich who drive a lot of the change and they’ve fact is their starting to move.

Claudia Edelman: 39:37 Wow. Edie, I love that. Imagine that if you’re like a Japanese accountant. Wow, that’s the young japanese accountant[laughter]. Edie, what about you?

Edie Lush: 39:46 So my prediction is that the argument over climate action is going to become stronger ahead of now. Yet again, prime minister Boris Johnson is hosting COP-26 in Glasgow in Scotland. I think we’re going to see more cities, more businesses and more coalitions emerging to tackle climate change. I think we need amazing minds and courageous hearts to be tackling these issues and I think it’s going to be a very challenging year for those who care.

Gillian Tett: 40:14 Since I have the british accent, I will jump in quickly and speak about Boris Johnson and the UK because there is a lot to be depressed right now about the UK. However, it so happens that green issues is one area where there really is a chink blight because the UK is already actually done a lot of very encouraging things about building public-private partnerships. And so against the odds, this really could be a chance for the UK to show to use the great British what it’s made of.

Claudia Edelman: 40:43 and so last words, 2020 optimistic, pessimistic, mixed?

Gillian Tett: 40:49 Gotta be optimistic because we’re the start of a new decade and if we’re not optimistic then when can you be?

Claudia Edelman: 40:54 There you go. Closing with Brexit. I love that Edie?

Edie Lush: 40:57 You can’t be an optimist. Why get up in the morning?

Claudia Edelman: 40:59 Wow, I love it. Honestly, after COP-25 and after Brexit, having two brave minds here saying that they are optimistic me for I would change. I’m mixed for 2020 and I do think that is going to be the year of Latinos. I’m super optimistic about the year of Hispanics here in the US but overall I really want to see government stepping up, being more efficient on businesses, getting more ethics, more moral, as you said, but I just don’t want to have like the break of a honeymoon with businesses too early because if they cannot manage the expectations of what people have, then is going to be a hard year.

Edie Lush: 41:38 Okay. Now it’s time for our year end special. Best of facts and actions from 2019 first three facts from Aron Cramer of BSR, Saskia Brusyen of Yunis social business and Robyn Scott of Apolitical,

Aron Cramer: 41:56 We’ve heard from the UN that the world needs to reduce emissions 7.6% per year during the 2020s in order to keep warming below 1.5 degrees. That is an urgent call to action.

Saskia Bruysten: 42:11 My second fact is that last year, 26 individuals on the same amount of money as 3.8 billion people who make up the poorest half of humanity. Despite the fact that extreme poverty has been going down, inequality has still been rising. Billionaires now have more wealth than ever before. While only 5% of all new income generated from the global growth trickles down to the poorest 60%

Robyn Scott: 42:45 In a world where jobs are increasingly being lost to automation, the international labor organization estimates that the green economy could create 24 million jobs by 2030 and now three actions from Chris Fabian of UNICEF innovation, Mohamed Yahya of UNDP and Mathias Devi of UNICEF.

Chris Fabian: 43:06 First of all, please, if you haven’t signed up for Finland’s online course on artificial intelligence, it’s called Elements of AI and you can find it through a quick Google search.

Mohamed Yahya: 43:15 Support the transformation of Africa, not through aid only, but through trade and other aspects of the relationship between Africa and Europe has to be one of mutual beneficial system. Structurally transforming Africa is one of the things that will then allow young people to want to stay in their own countries. At least give them that option,

Mathias Devi: 43:39 Support youth to speak up and hear them. Whatever you’re working on, whatever you’re designing, whatever you’re promoting. Remember that 1.8 billion people in your potential audience are children and youth and the 90% of these live in developing countries. This group has lots to say and listening can both improve your work and their lives massively.

Edie Lush: 44:01 Thank you to all our partners that have shared facts and actions in 2019 and thank you to Gillian for joining us and all our guests who shared their insights and stories with us this year

Claudia Edelman: 44:17 And thanks to you.. to you our dear listener. Thank you for listening. Please like and subscribe us via ideas or whatever you get your podcast from and follow us on social media @Globalgoalscast and a very personal special thanks to the wonderful team of Global Goalscast that has made this an incredible second year that we have from our editorial guru, Michael Oreske to Charles the Portobello to Simon James and Edie Lush and Tina and Michelle and everybody that is supporting us all around the world. Thank you. Thank you so much for this wonderful team. When you have a wonderful team, you produce wonderful things. Thank you for being with us this year. See you next year.

Edie Lush: 45:00 Thank you to you Claudia and…

Outro: 45:12 Global Goalscast was hosted by Edie Lush and Claudio Romo Edelman, our editorial guru by Mike Oreskes editing and sound production by Simon James. Our operations director is Michelle Cooprider and our interns Tina Pastore and Brittney Segura. Music in this episode was courtesy of Universal Production Music, one of the world’s leading production music companies, creating and licensing music for film, television, advertising, broadcast, and other media, including podcasts, original music by Neil Hale, Angelica Garcia, Simon James, Katie Crone, and Andrew Phillips. This episode is brought to you by MasterCard, creating scalable solutions for sustainable and inclusive economic growth. Thanks, also, CBS News Digital and Harmon, the official sound of Global Goalscast.

Imagine, if you can, industry leading the way to the SDGs


“Imagine all the people, living life in peace….no need for greed or hunger, a brotherhood of man.”

Those lyrics are surely familiar to you. They are from one of the most successful songs of all time, Imagine, by John Winston Lennon. Lennon, singing of his better world, voiced certainty that he “was not the only one” with this dream. Now, prominent corporate leaders have begun a new firm with the express purpose of making business and industry better global citizens. They have named the firm, Imagine, after the song. On this episode, Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman discuss Imagine and talk with two of the founders, Paul Polman, former CEO of Unilever, and Valerie Keller, a well-known CEO whisperer, coach and expert in transformational business leadership. With governments acting too slowly or in many crucial places gridlocked, more focus has fallen on the role of business in curbing climate change and achieving the other Sustainable Development Goals. Keller and Polman argue that much can be accomplished by creating “collective courageous behavior” by corporations working together to achieve what no one of them might take on alone. There first effort is underway in the Fashion industry and they talk about future plans for travel, tourism and, perhaps, even energy. Claudia observes that Imagine, the song, which was written in 1981, seems to call for the Sustainable Development Goals long before they were created in 2015. But Lennon also sang of “no possessions,” which might be a step further down a socialist road than Imagine, the company, envisions. Edie and Claudia discuss Imagine, the company’s place in what they describe as a movement to create a “better capitalism,” not replace it. “What we are really seeing in this world is that many people are dreaming for a better world than we have currently,” Polman says.

Facts and Actions “to help meet the moment…the decisive decade of the 2020s” are from a leading expert in sustainable business, Aron Cramer, President and CEO of BSR, a not-for-profit which advises companies on sustainability. You can read Cramer’s 2019 CEO letter, “A New Climate for Business”.

Laura MacKenzie, Senior Vice President of our sponsor, Mastercard, describes Mastercard’s work creating digital systems to pay garment workers, predominantly women, around the world. This protects their earnings and increases their access to the formal financial system. “many of the women,” MacKenzie says, “also have ambitions of their own. They would like to own land they would like to start a business. That’s what’s so exciting about this work.”

Photo credits: Hirsty65

Featured guests

Paul Polman

Paul Polman is Co-founder and Chair of IMAGINE, a benefit corporation and foundation accelerating business leadership to achieve the Global Goals. He also serves as Chair of the International Chamber of Commerce, The B Team, Oxford Said Business School and is Vice-Chair of the U.N. Global Compact.

He was CEO of Unilever for 10 years where he demonstrated that a long-term, multi-stakeholder model goes hand-in-hand with good financial performance. During his tenure, Unilever was one of the best-performing companies in its sector, delivering ten years of consistent top and bottom line growth.

Paul was appointed to the U.N. Secretary General’s High-level Panel that developed the Sustainable Development Goals and has played a leading role since in highlighting the business case for the 2030 development agenda, including as a founder member of the Business & Sustainable Development Commission. He remains a U.N.-appointed SDG Advocate.

Photo credits: @justinwu

Valerie Keller

IMAGINE Co-Founder and CEO, Valerie Keller helps leaders use their power for good. With deep expertise in transformation, she helps global corporations become purpose-led and future-fit — and convenes cross-sector coalitions to accelerate tipping points for humanity’s Global Goals.

Valerie is also an Associate Fellow of the University of Oxford Saïd Business School where she directs executive education programs.

Founder of Veritas and of Beacon Institute, she served as EY Global Markets Executive Director and CEO of US-based social enterprises addressing homelessness, healthcare and housing.

She was selected as a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum and serves on the Harvard Kennedy School Women’s Leadership Board. 

Photo credits: @justinwu

Aron Cramer

Aron Cramer is recognized globally as a preeminent authority on sustainable business. In addition to leading BSR, which has grown substantially throughout his tenure as President and CEO, Aron advises senior executives at BSR’s more than 250 member companies and other global businesses on the full spectrum of social and environmental issues.

Aron joined BSR in 1995 as the founding director of its Business and Human Rights Program, and later opened BSR’s Paris office in 2002, where he worked until becoming President and CEO in 2004. Aron serves on advisory boards to CEOs at Barrick Gold, Marks & Spencer, and SAP, and previously for AXA, Shell, and Nike. He is also a director of the Natural Capital Coalition, the International Integrated Reporting Council, and We Mean Business, and serves as a member of the Steering Council for the World Economic Forum’s Board of Stewards of its Future of Consumption System Initiative.

Aron speaks frequently at leading business forums and is widely quoted in top-tier media such as the Financial Times, Le Figaro (France), The New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal. He is co-author of the book Sustainable Excellence: The Future of Business in a Fast-Changing World, which spotlights innovative sustainability strategies that enable business success.

Prior to joining BSR, Aron practiced law in San Francisco and worked as a journalist at ABC News in New York. He holds a B.A. from Tufts University and a J.D. from the University of California, Berkeley.

Laura Mackenzie

As Senior Vice President of Global Prepaid for Mastercard, Laura is responsible for developing, executing, leading and adapting the global product strategy for Mastercard’s core prepaid products. In addition, she is responsible for driving product solutions to deliver Mastercard’s commitment to the World Bank to include 500 million people into the formal economy by 2020 through the development and deployment of innovative products and delivery channels.

Prior to this role, she spent 12 years leading Mastercard’s US Merchant acceptance for core merchant verticals. Mackenzie began her career in fashion with luxury global brands Ralph Lauren, Ann Klein and Nicole Farhi before making a move into the financial realm with South African start up joint venture e-commerce companies. She has spent many years living and working overseas in London, Barcelona and Johannesburg.

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of

Special thank you to:


Paul Polman:  00:01 You may say I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one. I think what we are really seeing in as well to as many people are dreaming for a better world than we have currently.

Valerie Keller:00:09  We were looking at pictures of children as young as four and five who because their fingers are so small, right? They’re able to pick out the metal, right? Nobody wants that.

Paul Polman: 00:20 Obviously, you have leaders and laggers there, but don’t forget they’re all parents. They all have children at home and these children are saying, I don’t want you to be my parents anymore. If you don’t create a future that we can live in.

Valerie Keller: 00:31 If you want to change the trajectory of kind of the collective behavior, sometimes you can actually just shift by the murmuring of a few birds, right? To start till flock starts to move in a different direction. It takes one, two, three to start to tip it.

Paul Polman: 00:42 If you get enough people together in the private sector, you get a collective courageous behavior and we believe, and we’ve already seen some proof of that, that as a result, we can drive the implementation of the sustainable development goals a little bit fast on, hopefully make this world a better place for everybody.

Claudia Edelman: 01:06  Welcome to the Global Goalscast!

Edie Lush: 01:08 The podcast that explores how we can change the world.

Claudia Edelman: 01:12 This episode, we will imagine a different world economy, a world where the biggest industries and corporations work together to redefine globalization. I make capitalism work for everyone that includes cutting carbon emissions and pulling people out of poverty for example.

Edie Lush: 01:30 Remember that song? Imagine from John Lennon [humming] inspired by Yoko Ono. Exactly. Imagine all the people John Lennon saying, no need for greed or hunger.

Claudia Edelman: 01:50  I think that he was calling for the Sustainable Development Goals even before there were Sustainable Development Goals. Every line in that song refers to one or more of the goals. It seems to me, end conflict, eradicate hunger, make it a better capitalism.

Edie Lush: 02:07 And our guest, this episode will tell us why this doesn’t have to be a dream. They’ve started a company to make it happen and they’ve named the company, Imagine.

Claudia Edelman: 02:16 Can I be the official singer of the company?

Edie Lush:  02:18 They actually have official socks, so I don’t know why they wouldn’t have an official singer. I think you’d be great.

Claudia Edelman: 02:25  I can make a … I can go on stage every time Paul Polman wants to…wants to talk. I can be the intro. Why do you need to interrupt Polman if you can sing his intro. There you go.

Edie Lush:02:34 We’re going to talk about all of that and much more right after this.

Transition:  02:39This episode of global goals cast is brought to you by MasterCard. MasterCard is dedicated to building an inclusive world in which the digital economy works for everyone everywhere.

Sponsors: 02:51 So many of the women that we spoke to also have ambitions of their own. They’d like to own land. They’d like to start a business. That’s part of what’s so exciting about this work. We’re not just helping workers get their wages more safely, but we’re including them in the formal financial system.

Transition: 03:09 Later in this episode, you’ll hear about MasterCard’s digital pay project to protect the world’s garment workers. Thanks also to CBS News Digital and Universal Production Music and to Harman, the official sound of Global Goalscast.

Claudia Edelman: 03:33 Welcome back. I’m Claudia Romo Edelman.

Edie Lush:  03:36 And I am Edie Lush. Claudia, you and I have been for two years now sharing stories about the Sustainable Development goals. One question I think tugs on us more than any other. How will we get this done? And then next 10 years.

Claudia Edelman: 03:50  Yes, how will we curve of global warming and eradicate poverty? How are we going to increase gender equality? How are we going to reduce conflict? Especially when so many governments are not doing enough or even worse, taking us in the wrong direction?

Edie Lush: 04:05 Right? US pulling out of the Paris Climate Accords, China building more new coal fired power plants and the entire rest of the world.

Claudia Edelman: 04:14 And the Trade Wars that are happening are undermining the effort to eradicate poverty. So much to do, so little time. But here’s the thing. Governments matter of course, and they are on the growing pressure from the public to do more and more. But the truth is that most of the world’s economy is shaped not only by governments, but by the actions that the industry and big corporations take. Imagine if industry did more.

Edie Lush:04:42 You got it, and I sat down actually in this very studio just the other day with two people, friends of the Global Goalscast who believe that they can make it happen. They’re called Paul Pullman and Valerie Keller .

Claudia Edelman: 04:56 Paul was until recently the CEO of Unilever, one of the largest household and personal product companies in the world. He was widely known for keeping Unilever and its employees focused on making the company be part of the solution and not part of the problem and creating a more sustainable world. As a fact, Edie, he suggested 10 years ago that every brand of Unilever, everyone of them would have a purpose that made it not only a great success financially, but Unilever became the third most desirable company to work for in the world because people care.

Edie Lush: 05:33 And that’s in fact why I started using Unilever products.

Claudia Edelman: 05:37 Is that right?

Edie Lush: 05:38 Back in the day.

Claudia Edelman:05:39 Oh, do you…do you soap it with dove.

Edie Lush 05:41  Deodorant, Dove, Ben and Jerry’s ice cream. Very loyal to Ben and Jerry’s.

Claudia Edelman: 05:46 It is actually crazy because consumers care and buy with their beliefs and employees. Young people want to work for a company that inspires them. So this raised big anxiety when he decided to retire. Could the sustainable world keep the work going without its main champion. So Paul turn for guidance to Valerie Keller, a well known CEO whisperer coach and leadership expert.

Paul Polman: 06:11  We started working intensively together about a year ago when we were thinking about the transition at Unilever and some people were concerned outside of the company more than inside that if I would retire, that our focus on driving this more sustainable and equitable business model grounded in the sustainable development goals, multi-stakeholder longer term, that that would be challenged

Edie Lush: 06:33 and now is not the time to lose such a powerful force for good. As Paul himself explained,

Paul Polman: 06:38 I think what we are really seeing in as well as many people are dreaming for a better world than we have currently and bringing the sustainable development goals to life. We’re actually well behind on our current trajectory globally. We will only achieved them in 2073 and that’s way too late. Lots of people will suffer or lose their lives as a consequence and fortunately there are many people in the world who don’t want to be part of them, but then we have this dilemma of fine, we know what we need to do and we need to solve issues like climate change and make this world function for more people than we currently do. But collectively we don’t seem to be able to do it. And Imagine is really created to create that collective courage and work at industry level under the premise really that we need the private sector to step up. It’s very clear that moving forward we’re having a little bit of a difficult situation geopolitically, whilst we need the NGOs and trade associations, et cetera, they are not really designed to deliver the step changes. But if you get enough people together in the private sector, you get a collective courageous behavior and with 25 to 30% of a industry sector present around a table, you can actually create tipping points and we believe, and we’ve already seen some proof of that, that as a result we can drive the implementation of the sustainable development goals a little bit faster and hopefully make this world a better place for everybody.

Edie Lush:08:03 You mentioned collective…

Valerie Keller: 08:05  Courageous.

Edie Lush:08:06 courageous collective. What’s interesting about that is that it encourages people to act together, but you also work with leaders to make them more empowered, more excited to take these changes. So how do those two things work together?

Valerie Keller: 08:21 And actually even when we work with leaders, we will usually work in the collective. So Paul mentioned how.

Paul Polman: 08:27 it’s a synergy.

Valerie Keller:08:28 it’s a synergy and it also comes from just a deep understanding of this human operating system. Human beings get courage in the collective. The best image that I might want to think about is this kind of the, the flock of birds. If you want to change the trajectory of kind of the collective behavior, sometimes you can actually just shift by the murmuring of a few birds, right? Just start to flock starts to move in a different direction. It takes one, two, three to start to tip it. Part of it is also about just tapping into the fundamental essence of our human nature. Humans meaning and belonging. We’re hungry for that and the people who make up these CEO and C-suite positions, these executives are human beings. Who fundamentally at some level know what time it is and are deeply concerned about the trajectory of our planet and of course what that means in terms of rising inequality and the kind of social fabric, right? So when you put these people together in conversations, they get higher ambition and collective action. People kept asking me after Paul was leaving Unilever, gosh, do you think Unilever is going to hold the course? Cause we really need them to really prove the model. Right? Why? Because they were looking for more of the collective as well. Safety in numbers. I think one of the interesting learnings was part of the work that Paul and our other co-founder, Jeff Seabright was involved with the consumer goods forum. So we’re looking at, you know, kind of leveraging the learnings about what we’ve seen work well elsewhere, where you’ve been able to kind of bring together CEOs of companies who might otherwise be in competitive spaces and together make decisions on it.

Paul Polman:  09:55 Well, see there are many areas that you don’t want to compete on that if you don’t fulfill them, the whole industry gets pulled down. You’d take plastics as a good example. Now there is a huge issue after David Edinburgh’s on the national geographic issues on the wheel on the beats. I think everybody is now understanding that we need a more circular or regenerative economy and that the fact that we’re heading towards more plastic in the oceans than fish is not a good thing. But any individual company take consumer goods. It’s impossible for these companies alone to set up a recycling industry. They don’t have to scale the knowhow, the capabilities, and it requires working with multiple parties from civil society to governments to companies and others alike. So you need to put these alliances together and that’s obviously very hard work, but if you bring an industry together, you can actually move these things forward as a faster speed. A good example of a, an area that is what we would call pre-competitive.

Edie Lush:10:51  Pre-competitive meaning?

Paul Polman: 10:53  Pre-competitive means that consumers don’t really buy on those criteria in a consumer doesn’t buy a television based on the mechanism for remote control yet it sucks in a lot of energy. If you can put the standards for the industry, there was lower energy use, you’d be better off. So the same as two on ice cream and beverage cabinets. If you take all these cabinets which engines in there to keep it cool, consumers don’t buy a beverage. It’s a Coke or Pepsi or an ice cream like a Magnum or a Ben and Jerry’s based on the engine that is in this cabinet. Now these engines are HFC or CFC. That’s an enormous destructive effect on global warming industry. Got together, decided to move to natural refrigerants, collectively spent money to provide the innovation to get there. Engineers invented less energy use, no HFC or CFC natural refrigerants like ammonia. Big influence on the Kigali agreement which goes back to the Montreal Accords. So the countries didn’t get courage when they see the whole industry moving. So you’re not only in case transform over a period of 10 years to 3 million ice cream cabinets or all these Bedford’s cabinets, but you’re also influencing then at that scale, that public policy and you’re moving faster than any company could have. None alone. It could have never achieved that.

Valerie Keller: 12:07 What’s interesting there is that you say the company’s move or the industry’s move. It’s people, right? We say organizations are made of organisms if you just want to distill it down to that. Right? And so when, when we look at that story and we say, well, how did that happen? Right? So how do we get more of those kinds of collective actions? You would say? Well, there was a guy named Paul, he was at Unilever and then there was a guy named, I don’t know who was it, who was at Nestle at the time,

New Speaker: 12:30 Nestle at that time was Paul Booker.

Valerie Keller:12:30 so it was like, let’s get Paul and Paul on the call and let’s talk together about how when we go in, who’s going to say what first? Right? Who’s going to set the bar high and then we’re going to move it together. I think we often kill ourselves in the notion of systems transformation. We all need to move. No, the flock needs a couple of birds to start to think how do we use our power to start just fly differently? No CEO wants a child in their value chain, in their supply chain to be going to bed hungry. Actually this morning we were with an entrepreneur in the fashion industry and a member of the Royal family who’s really passionate around taking slavery, modern day slavery and ending that and the supply chains and we were looking at pictures of children as young as four and five who because their fingers are so small, right? They’re able to pick out the metal, right? Nobody wants that. Right? So there’s a deliberate conversation that says we don’t have to do it that way. The only reason it’s done that way is just because we’re not being conscious about it and we haven’t decided that we want to do it differently. So I think there’s an important learning for us here that when we do these, let’s just humanize this, let’s simplify it at a certain level and it doesn’t mean that it’s easy, but it can be simple.

Paul Polman:  13:40 We have actually the opportunity to convene in the industries that have the highest impact on the Sustainable Development Goals. And that’s what we have priorized on. We have the possibility to convene about 25 to 30% of the value chain. Partly having been a CEO was the networks that we have created around us. We can bring them actually together. And when you get 25 to 30% of the industry together, and usually they are leading companies by themselves, otherwise they wouldn’t be there. But then the CEOs collectively actually set the bar higher than each of them individually would do. And what you see is when you get 25-30% of the industry together, others actually call in and say, why can’t I be part of that? Because clearly there’s something happening.

Edie Lush: 14:20 It’s like being part of the cool gang.

Valerie Keller: 14:20 Your absolutely right. We say let’s put the cool kids club. and yeah.

Paul Polman:  14:21 and I don’t want to miss the boat. You know, I don’t wanna miss the boat.

Speaker 1: 14:26 And what also happens is then NGOs who have a strategy of attacking each individual company. When they see 25 to 30% together, they say, I want to be part of this journey. I want to influence it, be sure that it happens transparently and to the highest standards, but I want to be part so they become partners. And what we also see is governments become more interesting. So instead of getting these knee jerk reactions in rules, laws and regulations that are basically geared towards the next election cycle are not what we need. You get substansive frameworks that are put in place that are often translated into less regulation.

Speaker 1: 15:02 How do you tackle something like the auto industry? So just taking a a moment in time. For the last couple of months we saw four auto makers reaching agreement with the state of California to limit auto emissions, but then we saw the Trump administration coming in messing that one up, announcing they want to loose their standards, and they began an investigation to see if the auto companies had broken antitrust laws. How do you work with both the companies and then the government to make the right thing happen.

Paul Polman:15:33   While you’re pointing out here, a specific issue was California. Where you have a state was in a country that is more ambitious and a government that has set different targets, often driven by political interest and election cycles. So there is tension sometimes at micro level, but take a step back and look at the car industry. All the major car companies in the world have made commitments to decarbonize and get out of internal combustion engines. It was actually invented by Mercedes. Mercedes has made very aggressive agreements. Some companies by 2025 some by 2030 but it’s moving. Folks who are going just made a commitment to spend over $1 billion in their research to get there. So we see major cities in the world now cities as far as London and Rome and Copenhagen and Brussels, and the list goes on that are putting timelines in place now for being a combustion free and getting into electric vehicles. That’s moving very fast. And obviously you can imagine if these big cities move, then the country’s moving and the thing will spread very quickly. We need to electric grid systems for jotting of these. We need standards on batteries. We need standards on materials being used in recycling and safety standards. So getting collectively together with these industries will allow us to move much faster than you automize would be.

Claudia Edelman: 16:54 When we returned to Edie’s conversation with Paul Polman and Valerie Keller. We will hear how, Imagine is working with a fashion industry to help save the planet and improve the life of its workers.

Edie Lush: 17:07 But first, here’s Laura McKinsey from our sponsor, MasterCard, who’s providing those same garment factory workers, long overdue financial inclusion and a possible future beyond the factories.

Laura McKinsey: 17:21  We know that we can’t do anything without partners that can help us reach and access individual sectors of people. So as we’ve embarked upon our garment program, we’ve established a recent coalition and that coalition at the moment includes industry players like Levi’s strauss, Marks and Spencer in vanity fair corporation and vanity fair corporation is the parent company of brands. You’ll know like North face, Timberland, Jansport and many others and we work with them to identify factories that they use to produce their goods and digitize the wages for those factory workers. We also work in conjunction with a global nonprofit BSR, which stands for Business for Social Responsibility. One of the critical elements of being successful in these pilots is ensuring the financial literacy and education of these workers. Certain workers who have a leadership position and a level of respect within the textile factory community are chosen to be pure leaders and they become the trainers and we bring those folks into the program. We give them access to the card products and the mobile wallets early on so that they can begin to use it and they can then become not only trainers, but evangelists out to their colleagues and their peers in the factory. I had the great good fortune to be in Egypt at one of our factories earlier this summer, and we’ve met with many factory workers. They’re predominantly women, and they’re driven is so many of us are by a deep desire to ensure that their children have good education, can move on to professions. They don’t actually want their children to remain garment workers as they are. They have higher aspirations for them. So many of the women that we spoke to also have ambitions of their own. They’d like to own land, they’d like to start a business. So for me personally, that’s part of what’s so exciting about this work. We’re not just helping workers get their wages more safely, but we’re including them in the formal financial system, which means that they can have savings accounts. Some have access to credit for their business. They can put away funds for their children and their families and they can continue to support their families both locally in and around, but also overseas.

Edie Lush: 19:57 Thanks to Laura McKenzie, she’s senior vice president from our sponsor, MasterCard.

Claudia Edelman:20:02 Now back to Eddie’s conversation with Paul Pullman and Valarie Keller from Imagine.

Speaker 1:   20:09 So what are the industries that you’re working on that will make the biggest difference? Believe it or not, the second most polluting industry from a point of view of climate change, biodiversity oceans, uh, is in fact the fashion industry to many people surprise, but 45% of the plastic you find in the oceans are the microfibers from the clothes and washing that obviously enter into the food chain very quickly and have devastating effects. But also the way that cotton is grown or water use, it’s behind a making of blue jeans and other things is a devastating effect on biodiversity. And then obviously the labor standards in the value chain as we’ve seen in the runup last hours of this world are not up to the standards of what we want our own children to be exposed to. So this industry has worked to do. That’s the first industry we focused on. Now we’re starting to make progress there. The second industry we’re focusing on right now and a relatively limited time we’ve had together is travel and tourism. 10% of the world population is employed in tourism itself. It’s an industry that has so over 320 million people working for them, a tremendous impact. And here again, triple on tourism alone, it’s about a 10% of carbon emissions. So that’s a big industry that we’re focused on. And then fruit

Valerie Keller: 21:25 contributing to biodiversity loss at a rapid rate as well.

Speaker 1: 21:28  And the third industry we focus on is food and land use. 30% of the natural solutions for climate change is the forest side as well. And reforestation. And the way we currently produce food leads to enormous poverty in the value chain once more, but also leads to enormous destruction of the world’s biodiversity was devastating. Climate affects over 20% of the climate effects actually come from food and land use. So if we can tackle those three industries fast as a priority over the next five years to create these tipping points, I think we might not have solved all the problems. We should not be pretentious here, but we might have made a major contribution in accelerating the implementation of the Sustainable Development Goals.

Valerie Keller:  22:07 As we’re working with the fashion industry. It feels really great what we’ve been able to help to support and catalyzed and tell us what you have been able to. Sure. I’ll do it because Paul’s too modest. I remember saying, yeah, it’s the industry doing it right. That’s right. President Emmanuel Macron had met with Paul during the UN general assembly a year ago. And we were saying, of course, you know, governments aren’t moving fast enough, but France had the G-7, um, that it was going to be hosting. And so the question was is can we help mobilize the private sector around this kind of public moment? And one of the things that we were looking at already was saying, okay, but where are the industries that really in the companies that can make a big impact? And so fashion well we thought France is fashion, right?and what happened there was really amazing. I mean it’s the first step toward the longer step, but we had 32 companies, 32 companies signed on. Now it’s an open ended, right? It’s optional on a piece. But in terms of really making material commitments around climate regenerative cotton and plastics, big steps in that way, not knowing how they were going to get there, but you know, as we would say and agree with and others have said as well, it’s about acts not packs. The question now is saying, can we help curate a group of CEOs across the value chain? And if I had my magic wand to wave, it would be of course people from mass, the Adidas and the Nike’s of the world. Obviously there’s people who are from the manufacturing and the retailers like Alana with Selfridges and others. But what if I had to wave a magic wand? I’d say we’d put this group together on the floor of the Aral Sea because you can be on the floor of the Aral Sea right now. And when I came into this world, you couldn’t, it was a fourth largest city in the, and why is it now of carcinogenic? Arid forbed that’s lost all the fishing villages and a livelihood. It’s just because of cotton over production. The water was diverted to Uzbekistan, and Kazakhstan. So it was just scale and bad planning on this. And to help a group of people see something, you can’t unsee and then to say, you know what? We don’t have to do it this way. We can collectively do it better.

Valerie Keller: 24:14 This isn’t a snap your fingers and move to transition overnight. Right. There’s a design to the current system on it and we need to redesign something better. So we’re saying it’s about a five year commitment that we would see minimum five years and maybe of course there’s a 10 year horizon for the global goals and then travel and tourism. I mean, let’s see, the CEOs have been reaching out right? From hospitality, from cruises, from airlines, right? From the travel and tourism operators.

Edie Lush:  24:41 And talk a little more about de-risking because that seems to be one of the things that you guys work on quite strongly. Making CEOs and industry feel like there’s less of a risk, is that right?

Paul Polman:24:54 Well, collectively there is less of a risk if you do it as an industry. If we all move, then you don’t get this a prisoner’s dilemma. If I do it and you don’t do it, I might be at a disadvantage. There is still disbelieve in some of them in the industry that it costs money. In fact, it’s increasingly proven to be the opposite, but having safety in numbers is a very important part to get the industry on board and as we see as fashion as we’re going to see with travel and tourism. That will definitely happen. But the other thing that is far more important that the industry, we have few leaders that are first to engage with governments or to engage with NGOs.

Edie Lush:  25:28  Like what?

Paul Polman:  25:28 Well, many CEOs are busy keeping their companies afloat and they hate to get involved in politics and they don’t really have the skills on how to do that. Because as an individual company, you cannot do that might be some lobbying, but how do you really collectively change the system? It’s very difficult. But if you come together as an industry, 30-40% of an industry, all of a sudden you discuss with governments and Congress good proposals. So this is where Imagine provides that safe space and that is what we call de-risking. And that’s a very important thing right now because what we’re really after is changing the systems and not working in the system anymore.

Valerie Keller: 26:06 I had a one of the world’s largest ice cream brands out with us in Indonesia and we were looking at the largest Buddhist temple and having the conversation around kind of, okay, well what is the need of the world right now? What’s the big challenge that the world needs from us? And if we were to have the courage to put our scale in service of that, and when they redefine it says what we’re up to as being part of the happiness movement. There’s, we’re solving for a deep disconnect that people have with themselves, with their ecology and with societies and we actually are at the grassroots level and have an opportunity to help to solve that. Then the next question comes, it says, well, who else is in the happiness movement? Right? And how can we be a part of actually saying we are here to help accelerate that. So that’s part of saying how you can move from people who are adversaries to allies just by saying we’re redefining the game to say what does the world need from us now and how do we show up in service of that? And that’s a fun game to play too. That’s the other thing. We really have seen this move from sustainability as it’s heavy and hard and don’t do batch, right? There’s a possibility here, and I think this goes back to the sense of, you know the what, when John Lennon and Yoko Ono were gifting to us with the song, “Imagine”, right? There we’re saying imagine all the people sharing all the world. I mean this is not just a pipe dream. It’s what we set our imagination on. We can achieve it. We’ve done that. Humanity has done that over the course of centuries. So what is it that we want to imagine as the possible?

Edie Lush 27:24 I wonder if you imagine sitting down with the oil production majors as well and what might be possible there. I think there was a report the other day saying that by 2030 on current trends, the world be taking more than twice as much fossil fuel out of the ground that can be burned if we’re ever to achieve the Paris climate agreement. So could you imagine, there’s the word, sitting down with the major oil companies to work out a curb on extraction?

Paul Polman: 27:52 The oil industry is obviously a very challenged industry because under the, the privately owned companies or of what you would call the publicly traded companies are probably only 15 to 20% of the whole industry. And it’s a state controlled industry in many cases, which makes it especially difficult because for many of these governments, it’s an enormous source of revenue. So can the industry alone solve that at the speed that is needed is probably difficult. Can we get the industry collectively come together and create a critical mass to drive some changes? I think that is possible. The industry is now coming together and looking at carbon capture storage. They’ve committed 1 billion. That’s probably not enough for what is needed. We have a broad enough coalition now that is calling for carbon pricing. As you know, you need to look at your risks in your value chain. You need to have a carbon price and you need to have, or a cap and trade system and, and uh, and, and to move it forward. So the industry has collective initiatives, but I think increasingly the bar is being set higher. And the question is, can we get them up to that level? And there’s obviously in some of the elements of that industry is still dysfunctional behavior where people have an interest to protect the current system because it’s serving them well. But there are companies within that are making rapidly the transformation. And if we can create some more critical mass around that, I think also that you see this industry being more responsible. Obviously you have leaders and laggers there, but don’t forget they’re all parents. They all have children at home and these children are saying, I don’t want you to be my parents anymore if you don’t create a future that we can live in. They also see the great Thornburns and they’re actually taking off on Fridays to be protesting. So more pressure is coming from them.

Valerie Keller: 29:37 An the insurers are getting on board too, right? So I think that’s also a part of it. You talk about risk, right? And de-risking it well. If you’ve got to start pricing risk and a completely different way, then

Paul Polman:29:44 it’s a big de-carbonization movement happening now. So they feel that pressure. Now what we need to do is work with these companies because they’ve provided energy to us. They’ve given us this tenet of living. There are many people working there, although seven times more jobs get created now in green energy, there’s still many people working in the fossil. So this just transition that people are starting to talk is also extremely important. And to not just go cold Turkey on these companies because we do need energy, but to work with them on an accelerated transition and there the oil companies can probably step up to be more focal in working with governments to create environments that allow that transition to be accelerated. Yeah. So one day although there are lots of efforts going on globally right now, one day. We certainly envision that we apply the imagine learnings that we have right now also to that sector. Yeah,

Valerie Keller: 30:36it’s interesting as I’m thinking back to, and Paul, we were in, um, in Davos actually where we launched soft launched, imagine a little bit, but we had a CEO of Allianz who Paul knows, well Oliver Bate. It’s right on. He was sitting in the conversation and Gillian Tett says actually kind of launching moral money and all of said something really interesting to Jillian. He said, you know, my daughter asked me, dad, are you proud of everything you do? And he attributes that as his moment of going, Hmm, actually let’s go back and have a conversation. So it’s the conversation with yourself. The conversation again about Oliver and his daughter again, this is what he was saying right on the stage and Davos was kind of his, Oh yeah, right now maybe actually no, we could do something different. And he goes back and he has a conversation with his board and his management team and then he asked Paul to come out and have a conversation with his management team.

Paul Polman:   31:26  There was once a year right now, not to be named, but he has all his board members, internal board members to write a letter to their children and what they would be telling their children they would be doing and then converting from those chains. It’s very transformative because it really helps. It really helps.

Edie Lush: 31:46 We’ve talked about climate and infultriating is this other idea about extreme poverty and tackling that as a real issue. So I wonder why for you cutting and eliminating extreme poverty is part of your goal for Imagine.

Speaker 6:   32:02 because they’re two sides of the same coin. In fact, climate change right now is driving more people into poverty. We’re at that tipping point and if you also look in these industries, what you want to solve, let’s take the food and land use industry, 826 million people still going to bed hungry every night, not knowing if they wake up the next day. So you cannot make an industry transformation if you don’t take that into account. At the end of the day, it’s not about solving climate change. At the end of the day, it’s giving a decent life to everybody on this planet earth. There are some simple principles in this world of dignity and respect of equity with a certain level of compassion that comes into that and it then boils down to ensuring that we don’t leave too many people behind. This is now a system where last year, the bottom 3.8 billion people of the world population has seen their income combined code down by 11% it’s the first time that that is happening whilst the billionaires became again 900 billion richer. So if we can find a way to include in these industries more inclusive, it’s also to the interest of the industries because lots of them might be their employees, they might be in their value chains where there are lots of issues in many companies and there might be uh, not only their employees, they’re also their consumers, which is a very important part of that. And obviously the broader society at large needs to function. So having all these businesses really focus on inequality at the same time. It makes a lot of sense in tourism, you see the same thing, a lot of child labor still in tourism that exposes tourism to its negative side. That is actually not helping the industry over time and what you see as if you can attack that by treating these people better, paying these people better and doing that again collectively by having some courage sticking to the ruggy framework of human rights and other areas that you actually lift that whole industry up, make it desirable, make it aspirational, and actually your economics work for you. Then as well, you have a motivated workforce, less a attrition and other things that come in place. But you need to lift the industry collectively because it’s very difficult for each individual company to do that. So whatever sector you look at, be it fashion, be a tourist or travel or be at food and land, use the leaving, no one behind, which is the ultimate goal of the sustainable development goals or attacking this inequality that is there is that very important component.

Valerie Keller: 34:20   This is a not a nice to have. This is a necessity. And so there’s a kind of a moment, there’s a rallying cry is an invitation that says, okay, business leaders, you’re not just business leaders, you are members of tribe humanity.

Claudia Edelman:  34:34  So what is the difference between a courageous collective and a cartel, Edie asks Paul Polman, to answer one of Adam Smith’s , most famous quotes that people have the same trade seldom meet together even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public or in some contrive as to raise prices.

Paul Polman: 34:57 It is good to remind ourselves that before he wrote the a wealth of nations which you referred to in your quote, he actually wrote 17 years before the book of the theory of moral sentiment and people have forgotten that. So I would say first read the book of the theory of moral sentiment. Now there is a truth that the invisible hand will not automatically correct ourselves and there are tragedies of the comments that are increasingly transparent and one of them is that we don’t have a price on these externalities and the resource use earth overshoot day this year was July 29th which means that we use 60% more resources than this earth can replenish. That’s a typical example of the tragedy of comments. So more than will they raise prices or not. I think the markets are transparent and competitive enough to intervene. And we’ve had, uh, enough examples there of government activity, which gets the attention is more as how do we deal with these tragedies of the common and they can only be solved if we have collective action.

Paul Polman: 35:55 And that goes back to the theory of moral sentiment. Ultimately, we have to ensure that we can live together as human beings on this planet now and for generations to come. It’s inconceivable to me that in the last 20 or 30 years, our generation that we have done more damage to this planet than in his previous 5 billion years of existence. What gives us the right to do that? So more and more businesses understand that more and more businesses want to be part of that solution. And in fact, we’re coming to the point where you now see that businesses are probably moving faster to attack. Some of these issues like climate change, then we get governments to do. And it’s now a moment. We’ve benefited from governments for a long time to give us this standard of living. Now it’s actually time for businesses to step up and help these governments and to be more courageous collectively. And that is exactly what we’re going to focus on. And that’s the essence of imagine in action.

Claudia Edelman:36:54 Wow. What an interesting conversation.

Edie Lush:  36:56 And do you see the connection to John Lennon, Yoko Ono, and imagine John Lennon was a poet and poets offer us visions, dreams. That is another poet. Robert Browning once wrote, must exceed our grasp. Poets show us where we could go. CEO’s, leaders like Paul Polman and Valerie Keller try to get us there. Poets are incredibly important. Having that imagination to rethink the problems that we have. When you have a man like Paul Polman that is both a man of action but also a man of ideas, you create traction and movements and people that want to follow. This is part of our movement, isn’t it? I’ll call it the better capitalism movement or the fourth industrial revolution. So everywhere I’ve been recently, Edie, business people, news magazines, everyone has been like, Holy cow, we really need to do something about it. Doesn’t it? We went too far, capitalism has to be rethought and we have to make globalization work for everyone. We have globalized music and sports and trade, but we now have to globalize rights and globalize fairness for everyone. And I think that that’s where the movement is going. However, John Lennon asked us to imagine a world with no need for greed. Right? In a sense, Polman and Keller don’t go that far. They imagine a world with the rough edges kind of smoothed off of greed. A capitalism of where profit is one of several motives. A balance. Yeah. And I think that recognizing the stakeholders the way that the business round table recommended. So in that sense, Paul and Keller are reformers and not revolutionaries.

Speaker 3: 38:43 And I imagine there’s, there were the, again, that those who really want a whole new system will view these as tinkering, could be, or even worse, they will say that a cartel is a cartel. Basically, that’s what Trump is saying about the automakers who made a deal with California to go further than Trump wanted to in curbing emissions. So Paul Polman skirted around that question about Adam Smith’s famous warning that letting the bosses of an industry sit together, even if they say it’s for good will end badly. Yeah, well he will surely get that question again. But Edie, at the same time there’s, those were arguing that capitalism is actually our only hope. Take Andrew McAfee in his brand new book “More from less”. He argues that it is the engine of capitalism, the profit motive, the greed, if you like that better. That will drive innovation and the efficient use of resources that we must have in the next 10 years to reduce our consumption of resources while continuing to improve living standards. So from that point of view, better capitalism is the best path to achieving the SDGs. There is no question that from Korea, Japan, China, editors of he financial times. I went to the Bloomberg New Economy summit. I see that origin, desire, what are the things that need to be done? What is the plan? So the SDGs provide one answer, but there’s a movement out there to restore a fairer globalization for all. Although we still have to break the gridlock that is paralyzing. Many governments, taxing carbon, for example, to cure global warming won’t happen without governments agreeing.

Claudia Edelman:40:26 Pretty much the same story about inequality, which I think is the main driver of losing trust in every institution in the world for the last 20 years. It undermines business governments, everything. Everyone has lost trust in their institutions because of inequality and Keller and Polman were very clear that they recognize that sharing the fruits of industry more widely, reducing inequality and eradicating poverty are essential.

Edie Lush: 40:55  Without that you can imagine much more radical approaches taking hold or just a retreat to short term thinking. Look at what’s happening in China.

Claudia Edelman: 41:04  Yes, exactly. I’m just coming back from China as I mentioned, and it’s so complicated and it’s so interesting to see China and climate change as a way to explore how complicated is to achieve these goals and to really move the needle for things like climate change. So they are a leader in solar energy and renewables. The vice chairman was at the Bloomberg new economic forum expressing justified pride saying we are on track for the Paris Accords. And nevertheless, you know, like it’s complicated because there’s also building more coal plants and the rest of the world. And why is that? Because they’re worried about their economy too. And that is where I worry, Edie, that we’re putting too much on the plates of corporations.

Speaker 3: 41:46 We’re expecting a lot, but no one really knows how much corporations can really achieve. Take it on climate change. It really in order to solve the issue of climate change, you need all the political will, the policies, but also trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars. Not even if you put all the budgets of all the corporations of the world together, you would get that amount of money. And also no one has really measured what can really be achieved by corporation when it comes to the SDGs. So there may be an elution that they can do more that what they really can. That is right. And I’m sure at Claudia that we’re going to be back to this discussion in future episodes.

Edie Lush: 42:27 For this episode’s facts and actions section where as you know, we give you three facts that you can take away and look smart in front of your mother-in-law at the Christmas dinner table.

Claudia Edelman: 42:36 And impress her tick-tick bye mother-in-law tick, tick. Happy New Year.

Edie Lush:   42:41 And three actions you can take. If you want to go and do more, we turn to one of the experts on sustainable business.

Erin Kramer:  42:51  Hi, I’m Erin Kramer, the president and CEO of BSR, and I want to share with you three facts and three actions to help meet the moment that we face the decisive decade of the 2020s as we aim to accomplish the sustainable development goals. So first three facts. Well, just this week we’ve heard from the UN that the world needs to reduce emissions 7.6% per year during the 2020s in order to keep warming below 1.5 degrees. That is an urgent call to action. Secondly, let’s talk about income inequality. And as Oxfam has said, incoming equality continues to grow. We saw a wealth of the richest around the world grow by over 10% and the wealth of the 4 billion people with the least declined by over 10% in the last year. One fact, that’s good news though that I think is worth pointing out. We now have more than a hundred companies and I think we’ll see that number grow by the end of 2019 who’ve committed to a target of 1.5 degrees.

Speaker 7:  44:00 And we’ve also seen two of the six largest economies in the world, California and the United Kingdom commit to net zero by 2050 so three facts. Two of them I think tell us the urgency we need to work with and one of them is a sign of real progress. So three actions. Let’s talk about climate. And I would underline the fact that having companies commit to get all of their operations, including their supply chains at a 1.5 degree target, that’s become the new normal. Let’s companies really embrace that as we go into 2020. Second one is we badly need innovation in order to achieve the sustainable development goals. But right now, people don’t trust innovation. They don’t trust it because they see new business models, new technologies very often violating human rights or getting out beyond ethical principles that are broadly shared. So we need innovation that takes human rights, takes ethics into account that will ensure that we get the new kinds of products and services and business models and partnerships that we need to achieve the SDGs.

Speaker 7: 45:06Third action companies need to lend their voice in public policy debates. Governments around the world are retreating from climate commitments. They’re interfering with enjoyment of human rights. The business community has an important megaphone, has influence using it in order to ensure that we have public policies that create the right kinds of incentives for the right kinds of businesses to succeed and thrive and deliver on the SDGs. That central, it’s not too political, it’s absolutely important. So those are three facts and three actions as we head into the 2020s the 10 years when we need to deliver on the SDGs and the vision of the Paris agreement,

Edie Lush:45:50  Thanks to Aaron Kramer from BSR. BSR is a not for profit that has been advising businesses and industries on sustainability for 25 years.

Claudia Edelman: 46:00 For more from BSR, you can read Aaron Kramer, CEO it is cold and new climate for business.

New Speaker: 46:11 You don’t need to be a meteorologist to know which way the wind blows.

Claudia Edelman: 46:16  Our Global Goalscast playlist is coming together. John Lennon, Bob Dylan, who else? Annie Lennox of course, of course. Yeah. No and I, with our partnership with universal, we’re going to have even more artists coming your way.

Edie Lush: 46:28 Artist.

Claudia Edelman: 46:28  Artistas.

New Speaker: 46:28  So send us your suggestions, the listeners for our Global Goalscast SDGs playlist to us on Twitter, LinkedIn, and Instagram. Now I do think it’s a great idea to do a great playlist of the songs that are like spelling out how to change the world and make it a better place. Yeah. So the global goals guest playlist, including some Christmas carols.

Claudia Edelman: 46:51 There you go. Send us your suggestions and talking about carols, can we mention that? Um, I met with the head of communications of the Financial Times and she mentioned that the carols that her toddler is learning in school is no more jingle bells, jingle bells or you know, like Twinkle Twinkle. And so one old this goodies she’s learning carols of recycle and oceans and you know like save the planet.

Edie Lush: 47:15 Right.

New Speaker:  47:15 Turning England, you know,

Edie Lush:  47:18 Into young activists.

Claudia Edelman: 47:19 There you go.

Edie Lush: 47:19 I love it.

Claudia Edelman: 47:20  Yeah, all of those playlists are accepted as well. All the activist carols will accept those into our Spotify playlist.

Edie Lush:  47:29 Thanks to Claudia for coming to London to see me and record this and our thanks to Paul Pullman and Valerie Keller for sitting down with us and sharing their story. We will no doubt be hearing more from them in future episodes and thanks to you for listening please like and subscribe as we iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts from and follow us on social media @Globalgoalscast. See you next time.

Claudia Edelman:  47:55 Adios.

Edie Lush:  47:55   Adios, Happy holidays, whatever you celebrate. But do celebrate something, we have much to celebrate!

Outro: 48:02  Global Goalscast was hosted by Edie lush and Claudia Romo Edelman. We are editorial guru by Mike Oreske editing and sound production by Simon James. Our operations director is Michelle Cooprider and our interns, Tina Pastora and Brittney Segura. Music in this episode was courtesy of Universal Production Music, one of the world’s leading production music companies, creating and licensing music for use in film, television, advertising, broadcast, and other media, including podcasts, original music by Neil Hale, Angelica Garcia, Simon James, Katie Crone, and Andrew Phillips. This episode is brought to you by MasterCard, creating scalable solutions for sustainable and inclusive economic growth. Thanks. Also, CBS News Digital and Harmon, the official sound of Global Goals

‘My Number was 453’ – One migrant’s story


More than 30,000 African migrants have died crossing the Mediterranean. Ibrahim Kondeh narrowly escapes becoming one of them. But through luck and courage, he makes it across to Italy, although he pays a terrible price on the way. Claudia Romo Edelman and Edie Lush complete the story of this one migrant. “The story of migrants should be told more,” Ibrahim says in this episode.

“People tend to follow what the media tells about migrants and refugees — seen as people who come in to steal jobs, criminals. So, as a result, no one knows what our actual stories are. Positive stories can change the mindset of people.” 

Ibrahim encounters frustration and racism in Italy. But he also is helped along the way, particularly by an innovative use of text messaging called U-report. Tanya Accone of Unicef explains that U-report connects Ibrahim and other migrants and refugees with experts who can advise them when they are at their most vulnerable, alone in a new land without language our resources.

With the help of U-report Ibrahim navigates the Italian immigration rules and enrolls in high school. “A simple SMS,” says Tanya Accone, “can it change your life? I think Ibrahim would say, yes, it has.”

Facts and actions are offered by one of the creators of U-report, Mathias Devi Nielsen of Unicef.

“U-report is a tool for all youth to raise their voices battle stereotypes connecting youth to serve on a global scale. “

 U-report currently operates in 65 countries with 8.5 million uses. It is growing rapidly. Mathias invited companies, agencies, NGOs and youth groups to partner with u report to help provide migrants and refugees with answers to their questions

 * * *

The episode is brought to you by Mastercard, dedicated to building an inclusive world in which the digital economy works for everyone, everywhere

Global GoalsCast also welcomes a new partner, Universal Production Music, one of the world’s leading production music companies, creating and licensing music for film, TV, advertising, broadcast, and podcasts, including Global GoalsCast.

Featured guests

Ibrahim Adnan Kondeh

Ibrahim Adnan Kondeh, is a young man, 20 years of age, from Sierra Leone. He lived in a village with his family, helping with the farm and local shops. As a result of his family’s huge sacrifice, he used to go to school there, so he wasn’t among the poorest. Sadly, he was forced to escape when approached by a secret society that “grooms boys to become men”, facing tortures and threats. He then went on a journey eventually making his way into Italy. He arrived in Italy as an unaccompanied minor 3 years ago at the age of 17. The way there was not easy. He was kept as a slave in various locations on this journey. His boat was rescued crossing the Mediterranean Sea. His arrival at a reception center for refugees in Calabria was not very welcoming, the center was very crowded and would not offer services, such as education, for minors. After overcoming these roadblocks, and even learning Italian, Ibrahim was recognized as a bright writer, winning renowned competitions, such as the Moleskine Foundation and the U-Report Contests. Once his voice was heard, he became a U-Ambassador and active member on the platform and U-Blogger on the move. Thanks to his active participation, he applied to Refugees Welcome for a chance to be hosted by an Italian family, He was accepted and is now living there. He was also granted the Never Alone bid for a 2-year scholarship at the renowned United World College of the Adriatic.

Tanya Accone

Tanya Accone’s career has focused on helping international public and private sector organizations understand how to amplify their impact through the convergence of people, ecosystems and innovation. She is committed to applying innovation for social impact and as a public good, especially with and for young people.

Accone has been at the forefront of advocating for and leading ground-breaking initiatives at the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF). As Senior Advisor on Innovation at Scale, she has led UNICEF’s Global Innovation Centre to support 90 countries to identify, adopt and adapt innovative solutions that have changed the lives of 180 million children and their communities. 

Among these initiatives are U-Report, a youth engagement and empowerment platform that facilitates 8 million young people in 60 countries to speak out on development issues, support child rights and improve their communities. And UPSHIFT, an initiative that empowers youth to build skills and opportunities through social innovation and entrepreneurship.

Accone joined UNICEF to design the organization’s first internet strategy and led its implementation in more than 100 countries. UNICEF received the internet-equivalent of an Oscar – a Webby Award – from The International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences in recognition of the excellence of part of this work. She went on to establish and lead the organization’s human capital futures and analytics portfolio.  She tweets at @accone.

Mathias Devi

Mathias Devi Nielsen is a Youth & Innovation Specialist for UNICEF’s Office of Innovation. He manages the Global U-Report platform, a social messaging and youth empowering platform aiming to increase youth voices in legislation and setting the global agenda. With a background in Displacement and Emergency Response, Mathias has been deployed for the past 3 years in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, and North-East Nigeria for the International NGO Danish Refugee Council.

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of


Ibrahim Kondeh: 00:00 My number was 453. Everyone has a number. My number was 453.

Pause: 00:05 [background music]

Ibrahim Kondeh: 00:09 The world doesn’t understand that we move because of reasons we can’t handle. And people tend to follow what the media tells about migrants and refugees, seen as people that come into steal jobs, criminals. And so as a result, no one knows what our actual stories are. Positive stories can change the mindset of people that don’t know anything about the stories of migrants and refugees. I think should be told more.

Tanya Accone: 00:42 You know, what does this mean? A simple SMS tool? Can it change your life? And I think Ibrahim would say: “yes, it has.”

Claudia Edelman: 00:58 Welcome to the Global GoalsCast!

Edie Lush: 01:00 The podcast that explores how we can change the world. This episode, we will cross the Mediterranean with Ibrahim Kondeh.

Claudia Edelman: 01:07 This is the incredible second half of our special report: ‘One Migrant’s Story.’

Edie Lush: 01:12 And what a story of courage and determination. We will travel with Ibrahim as he survived a shipwreck and encounters racism as he’s never had it before and how technology transforms his life.

Claudia Edelman: 01:29 Ibrahim really got it right when he described his fellow migrants as “true heroes”… And this is our chance to share with you – the audience – what is it to be a migrant and why we think that humanizing migrants as individuals can remind us that we all belong to the same human family, which is the essential part of achieving the Global Goals.

Edie Lush: 01:51 More on all that right after this…

Pause: 01:53 [background music]

Presenter: 01:56 This episode of Global GoalsCast is brought to you by Mastercard. Mastercard is dedicated to building an inclusive world in which the digital economy works for everyone, everywhere. This episode we welcome Universal Production Music. Universal Production Music is one of the world’s leading production music companies, creating and licensing music for use in film, television, advertising, broadcast, and other media including podcasts. Thanks, also, to CBS News Digital and to Harman, the official sound of Global GoalsCast.

Pause: 02:34 [background music]

Claudia Edelman: 02:42 Welcome back. I’m Claudia Romo Edelman.

Edie Lush: 02:45 And I am Edie Lush. Migration is such a powerful economic force. Claudia, I loved your line in Marie Claire last year, when you said that migration is ancient, unstoppable and positive.

Claudia Edelman: 02:57 Migration is not only ancient, unstoppable and positive but also can reduce inequality, accelerate growth and development only if it’s well managed, which is why migration was included in the Sustainable Development Goals. To start with, let’s see, global goal 10 is ‘Reduction of Inequality’ both within and among nations and to help achieve that goal 10 calls on countries, let me quote this, Edie, “To facilitate or the least safe, regular and responsible migration and mobility of people including through the implementation of planned and well-managed migration policies”, which is what the Global Compact for Migration is all about.

Edie Lush: 03:40 And as you know from our last episode, pretty much nothing about Ibrahim’s trek from, his village in, Sierra Leone to the North African coast was orderly, safe or regular. More like fate takes a hand meets the survival of the fittest. Let’s quickly recap that episode… It all started with Ibrahim’s flight from tribal initiation.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 04:06 I had to, like, fend for myself. The very first night. I slept on a stall at the Lorry Park.

Claudia Edelman: 04:15 Ibrahim’s story illustrates the plight of what the UN calls irregular migrants. Irregular being a polite way of saying outside the regular authority of police or governments.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 04:28 We were dumped in Niger. A huge number of us. Those that can afford it at that particular time had to pay again to move… we paid the traffickers about 300 or 400 US dollars to take us to Tripoli. They told us it will take us two days to reach in Tripoli, but we actually spent one week in the desert before we were able to see normal land or buildings… going through the desert you could see like fossils like remains of people that I’ve just been dumped left to dry out in the sand.

Edie Lush: 05:08 And before reaching their promised destination of Tripoli. The journey comes to an unexpected halt in Sabha that notorious hive of human trafficking.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 05:17 I couldn’t exit the gate without the permission. So he’s like, you have to work in order to pay for… like a ransom actually. So I was there for a couple of months, like working daily…

Claudia Edelman: 05:31 Like so much of Ibrahim’s journey. Faith was to play its part in the next stage…

Ibrahim Kondeh: 05:37 Every Friday, 26 people are supposed to leave. And so, one evening while they were counting, they were only 25, and so they just saw me because I was one of the youngest little boys among a group. And so they just went: come, go with them. So that was when I had to leave that place. That was the only opportunity I had to leave on that fateful evening.

Pause: 06:03 [background music]

Claudia Edelman: 06:10 And this is where we rejoin Ibrahim and Daniel on a Mediterranean beach in Libya.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 06:19 At the seaside, it was fairly cold and very cold. It was in December. We had to be outside and we would get food, a loaf of bread once a day. I was there for like two weeks because we had to wait for the construction of the dingies and also the weather condition.

Pause: 06:44 [background music]

Ibrahim Kondeh: 06:44 When the time came, one evening, around 12 to 12:30 AM, on the 12th of December, they called us. 130 to 140 of us that loaded in that boat that morning.

Edie Lush: 07:03 This is a boat made for 70 people, which was crammed with nearly twice that many.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 07:10 I was the first person that’s entered because when the boat came, I was one of the people that took the boat into the water. So the others you have to walk into water that you go to at a certain height you could climb into the dingy. We were from different nationalities. There are also people from Bangladesh, from Pakistan, there were some other guys from Morocco mixed nationalities and we were packed in this boat.

Claudia Edelman: 07:39 For months, as they travel North, Ibrahim and Daniel had been inseparable, but on that chilly night, Ibrahim sat alone in the prow of the boat.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 07:52 Daniel later came in. I wasn’t able to see or talk with him. The last time I saw him was before when we were standing in the line before I took the boat to the water.

Claudia Edelman: 08:02 The traffickers said a few parting words…

Ibrahim Kondeh: 08:06 They told this that this will take us three hours to get to Italy. That was a lie. The boy that was like moving the boat, didn’t know what he was doing. He didn’t know how to use a compass and they just gave us two gallons of fuel. They say, well that will take you guys to Italy.

Edie Lush: 08:27 Separated from Daniel in an overcrowded boat.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 08:31 We were scared of talking or shouting because there was a group that we were praying not to meet. They were called the Asthma boys, a gang or rebel group that chases boats around in the water, catch them, take them to their own camp and then request for money and after these people paid and then they will load them again to continue. their journey. So that is their job, how they get their money. And then, we have the problem of the coastal guards as well, when you, are caught they take you to prison. So we couldn’t shout, we couldn’t talk to each other.

Edie Lush: 09:08 Three hour stretch turned into night and a day, jammed or choked, as Ibrahim put it into that bare seaworthy boat.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 09:18 We were choked up and some people were down, couldn’t do anything. And we came to a point where the tide of the sea was very high. So the boat was like swinging up and down. I was actually sitting in water, there was just like two long piece of board that deletes at the floor of the boat. And so because of the tides, a lot of water entered, it was really, really rough… [Ibrajim sobs]

Pause: 09:45 [background music]

Ibrahim Kondeh: 09:46 We saw them coming like in little speedboats come towards us. We were scared. We thought it’s was like this group that’s used to catch people and take them to prison. So we were scared and when they came and they asked if we have weapons or how many are we in there if there are babies with pregnant women. And so then we realized that they were people to rescue us, so everyone started shouting, crying… the boy that was steering the boat had to remove the engine and dumped it into the sea. He was scared. If they saw him, he will be arrested and accused of being the trafficker. As we were unable to go further.

Claudia Edelman: 10:40 A British rescue sheep had spotted them along with two other boatloads of migrants. The rescue workers asked Ibrahim’s boat to wait, but adrift in the tossing sea. Now without an engine waiting was easier to say than to do…

Ibrahim Kondeh: 10:56 A lot of people started becoming panicked and some guys were standing, some were shouting… and it’s become very chaotic, like, everyone was so worried and afraid. Then they came for the little children and the pregnant women, they took them out after that. They had to, like, start drawing the boat with a rope… but during that time the side where the engine was. The weight was so much down there because the waters entered and so it began to sink down. And so that was when some people decided to like jump into the sea to try to swim. The distance was long. So some of them that jumped couldn’t make it and when the boat started and like sinking. Other people were trying to rush to come to the front where at least it was a little bit higher. And that was how a lot of people lost their lives.

Pause: 11:54 [background music]

Edie Lush: 11:59 Only later, after he’d been plucked from the sinking boat and taken to the British ship, was Ibrahim able to grasp the scale of what had happened and the toll.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 12:10 When we entered the ship, there were many people inside that, people that they rescued before. On that day, we were about 600 that were rescued in that particular ship and my number was 453. Everyone has a number. My number was 453.

Claudia Edelman: 12:30 Ibrahim searched the crowded ship for Daniel…

Ibrahim Kondeh: 12:34 When entered I thought like he reached before me or he’s on his way coming or is on the other speed boat… so I started looking around the different people, I started searching… and he wasn’t there. And then I realize, yeah, he was one of the people that couldn’t make it. I wasn’t able to see him again. And then they asked us if we have any clue about the people that couldn’t come because they, they realized that some people had drowned and then that was when I started asking. I called out, I knew someone that is down there. We stayed there for a couple of minutes and then the ship had to move. I never found out officially what happened. If his body was found, I don’t know. Never had that opportunity… [Ibrahim sobs].

Pause: 13:28 [background music]

Claudia Edelman: 13:40 30,000 migrants have died trying to cross the Mediterranean in the past few years. 50 to 60 of those drowned that night, including Ibrahim’s friend from childhood, Daniel…

Edie Lush: 13:56 They had come so far together. Ibrahim and Daniel were so close to their goal when tragedy hit.

Claudia Edelman: 14:09 The ship took Ibrahim and the other survivors to Italy.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 14:13 When we arrived, we were taken to the reception center in Calabria for unaccompanied minors. I was given a phone to like call my parents.

Claudia Edelman: 14:26 On a borrowed phone, Ibrahim called his mom.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 14:29 The first thing she said that she thought I was dead.

Edie Lush: 14:34 She hadn’t heard from him for nine months, which then brought the questions moms ask everywhere.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 14:40 She was like “why didn’t you call me??? I thought something bad had happened to you! I thought you are dead!” She shouted so loud that I am alive. And then she asked, “where are you?” And then I told her where I was and she was like “how did you manage to be there, what happened? You didn’t call me all this while! How are you?”.

Pause: 15:03 [background music]

Ibrahim Kondeh: 15:03 My mom doesn’t know actually all the things that I went through. I never spoke with her explaining everything. I didn’t really explain things to her because I know how she might react to hearing that because she has blood pressure and so I don’t want anything bad to happen with her health so…

Claudia Edelman: 15:27 Ibrahim was alone in a promised land where he and Daniel had dreamed of reaching together. He was 17 years old.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 15:36 When I first arrived. I never talked about my journey because everything was so hard to explain. Thinking about how we were close and what happened or what I’ve been through… Those are memories, they have been chasing me like wildfires in the dry season, I could say. It’s so hard to think about. And so… as most times, I tend not to not to actually talk about it. It’s very hard.

Pause: 16:07 [background music]

Edie Lush: 16:11 And the work was not over. Physical danger receded, but Italy brought new challenges.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 16:17 I had that thought, that imagination of how my life will be like, how am I have my… the possibility to go to school. The Europe we saw on TV was: lights everywhere, beautiful houses, high buildings, and rich people. And then, in my reception camp, it is quite different. And mainly because it was a reception camp and we were many, a lot of people have to wait for each other to go to the bathroom. There were changes that were normal. Now it was quite understanding, right? A different cultural, different environment. In fact, it was in December. I’m from West Africa, it’s very hot there. And here it was super cold, for the very first time I had to feel that. But it was normal. And um, I had to learn a new language. These were all understandable. But there was one thing that I wasn’t expecting, like going out and people actually see from a distance and then go to the other side. Once I asked why and then I was told that we were first set of people of color, with that amount of number, that has ever lived in that community. So people were really scared of us, and that really pains. There are some people who were very rude that they, that walk past you in speed. Some tend to cover their nose. So all of these things were beyond my imagination. Mental and emotionally. It’s very, very, very, very hard. There’s no proper access to help for the people living in reception centers. And sometimes if you talk they will say if you think that here is very hard, why are you here, why don’t you just stay where your home is. These are people that working in the camp. I stayed there for 11 months when I was actually supposed to be there for three months. I bought into what they told us, but I was there for 11 months, like waiting for the documentation process and I didn’t have like anything to do. I didn’t have the opportunity to go to school there, because by them they said, uh, my Italian wasn’t good.

Claudia Edelman: 18:46 To most of us, a mobile phone is a gadget, but to Ibrahim, it was much more a lifeline. But first, he needed to raise the money to buy a phone. As he told Edie…

Ibrahim Kondeh: 19:00 I had no money to do that and so the people that were running the camp owns the hotel. And so what the deal is like they had to offer us a job and we would work from eight in the morning until four or five in the evening and they would pay us five euros a day! And I went.

Edie Lush: 19:21 Wow!

Ibrahim Kondeh: 19:21 Yes, five euros a day, and I worked for a complete one month in order to get 150 euros to buy myself a phone. I was so desperate to have a mobile phone because that was the only chance I could get to speak with my family.

Claudia Edelman: 19:37 But connecting with his family was only one of the benefits.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 19:41 So when I got the phone, I started like connecting to the internet, Facebook or any other social media. And also downloading apps, which I could use to learn the Italian language.

Edie Lush: 19:54 Wow. What apps did you use?

Ibrahim Kondeh: 19:57 I used Duolingo and um, several other free apps.

Claudia Edelman: 20:01 Ibrahim supplemented the Italian, he was learning on Duolingo with language classes at an adult education center. He eventually received a basic education certificate.

Edie Lush: 20:12 And with your phone you were able to use an SMS service that UNICEF is involved in, is that right?

Ibrahim Kondeh: 20:22 Yes, messenger through Facebook.

Edie Lush: 20:24 And what did you use that for?

Ibrahim Kondeh: 20:26 To ask questions, because, in the camp, the people that were running the camp couldn’t understand me that much cause I couldn’t speak Italian. So when U-Report came and told us about their platform and it told me that the questions will be answered in the language that we prefer. It was like welcoming news because I had so many questions that I wanted to know the answers to, pertaining to my documentation process and how I was living my life in that reception center.

Edie Lush: 20:58 How did it work? You had a Facebook messenger and you just started firing questions off?

Ibrahim Kondeh: 21:03 Yeah.

Edie Lush: 21:04 What were those questions?

Ibrahim Kondeh: 21:05 I sent so many messages, so many messages… on how to go for my document because the camp that I was living, they work so slowly, like, there was nothing moving. So I want you to know if I can do it myself. And then they told me that yes I can do it myself because the camp has to deal with so many other people that are seeking asylum. So then I started moving, going for my ID card, which I did by myself and so many other processes that I did by myself. So that really helped me in going through my documentation process.

Edie Lush: 21:42 Where there lawyers on the other end of your messaging service feeding information to you. Was that what was happening?

Ibrahim Kondeh: 21:48 Yes, they were lawyers that know more about how the asylum process works in Italy.

Edie Lush: 21:53 And how long after you started using the platform? Did you get documents to move on?

Ibrahim Kondeh: 22:02 Within five to six months, I was able to start receiving answers from the questions at the police office, and having appointment dates, or where to go for medical checks and um, to take ID cards.

Claudia Edelman: 22:16 And UNICEF did not just give Ibrahim a lifeline to lawyers, but also helped him get back to school.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 22:23 With the help of a lady that works at UNICEF, she sends me a link one day about this advert she saw that people are giving scholarships to young migrants and refugees that came to Italy as a minor. So I happened to apply and I was called for an interview and also the test. And I got called that I have been accepted. So presently I am doing an International Baccalaureate program, IB diploma for two years, and so I can renew my documents. I can have a student stay permit now instead of a job permit all losing my stay.

Edie Lush: 23:09 Claudia, remember Mohamed Yahya from the last episode talking about how so many migrants were chasing their dreams to Europe? Ibrahim may have left home fearing for his life, but that turned into the dream of building a different life for himself. Now, Ibrahim wants to stay and attend university in Europe, but things are far from certain. A change in government or rules for migrants could be enough to throw Ibrahim long term plans off track.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 23:37 If I was back home, my life would’ve been more stable than here because I was in school. I actually thought I’d imagine I had a great future ahead. Well here, I’ve lost so many years of school and I’m still fighting, although I could say right now on the right track trying to catch up again.

Claudia Edelman: 24:04 That SMS messaging service that Ibrahim used was part of something called U-Report. It was a big help for Ibrahim just when he needed it. Tanya Accone from UNICEF who introduced us to Ibrahim says that was the idea.

Tanya Accone: 24:22 We have a use of U-Report which is called On The Move and it really reaches out to young refugees and migrants who arrive with nothing, in this case in Italy, and it’s around how to help them at their moment of most vulnerability. They don’t know the system, they don’t know what they’re meant to do. They have no network and they’re incredibly vulnerable. They’re under 18, they feel like they cannot go to any official municipal body, or the police, or anywhere, for any help because they’re undocumented. You can imagine if you’re fleeing for your life and or you’ve been through countless situations of being transported from X to Y place, you may have lost or may never have had the right kinds of documentation that you need. So they also are not aware if they’re allowed to get any health services if they’re allowed to go to school if they’re allowed to be anywhere. Do they need to run from the police? Every time they see an official person, they have no idea what their rights are at all typically. And it’s about how can we reach and help those young people at their most vulnerable moment to claim their rights and to get them to be able to access services and to protect them. You know, what does this mean? A simple SMS tool? Can it change your life? And I think Ibrahim would say yes it has.

Edie Lush: 25:45 Not only did U-Report give Ibrahim access to guidance through the thickest of laws and rules covering migrants. This mobile phone message system gave him the opportunity to share and process some of the trauma of his journey and experiences.

Pause: 26:01 [background music]

Ibrahim Kondeh: 26:01 They made a competition for people to give out their views. It can be video, a song, whatever someone wishes to participate with. And so I had to sit down and like reflect on my journey and all the things that I have been through. There was no one that I could talk to most of the time. So I just used to write, just to free myself from that dark past that I had. So I decided to like to write upon it. And so when I shared it with them and they liked it, they said I have won! I won the competition! I was surprised that someone would like them. So that was when I started, I kept on writing.

Claudia Edelman: 26:49 Here at the Global GoalsCast we have been deeply touched by Ibrahim’s, courage, first courage, making his journey and then courage in telling the world about it. And we love his poem. An extract of that poem can be heard in our previous episode, which covers the first part of Ibrahim’s journey.

Pause: 27:08 [background music]

Claudia Edelman: 27:08 Edie, this is a really touching moment for both of us, I think. A boy whose voice has never been heard, number 453, and he has this beautiful moment when he realizes that he has something to say, his story is important. His poem has been selected. I think that that’s such an incredible sense of, all of a sudden being visible.

Edie Lush: 27:43 Which is what we’re trying to do here on the Global GoalsCast. I actually felt incredibly touched that he chose to share his story with us when I still don’t think he’s ever told it to his mother and I think his mother has now listened to this podcast, so she’s also hearing some of it for the first time.

Claudia Edelman: 28:00 Wow. I actually have to admit, I would love to know if we can reach the mother of Ibrahim and let her listen to this, but hey, she has a blood pressure, right? Like I don’t know. I don’t want to think. I won’t. I won’t push that one.

Edie Lush: 28:16 Hang on. Stop press. We’ve just received a message from Ibrahim saying that his mom hasn’t yet listened to the podcast, but his brother has and he is going to play the podcast to his mom because she can’t actually use the internet yet. So…

Claudia Edelman: 28:30 Oh, that’s so amazing!

Edie Lush: 28:30 I feel like we’re connecting the dots. I feel like we’re gonna show Ibrahim’s mom what an amazing person he is. She probably already knows that though.

Claudia Edelman: 28:44 The most important part that I have realized through this journey of Ibrahim and Daniel, first of all, is that we’re all human. At the end of the day, having lost your best friend on a journey where you’re like trying to get something and all of a sudden you’re sitting down on the edge of a boat on your own, it’s such a human story. I can relate to that so dramatically, but at the same time, it stroke me how do you know like UNICEF and people like Chris Fabian inventing U-Report, you know like someone we know has been able to save someone’s life like Ibrahim. That’s amazing! And how many other technology pieces can we add to this equation to make them touch the life of someone?

Edie Lush: 29:28 Actually, I think it was your idea to have this whole season be called technology and transformation, Claudia, so well done! Because I actually think that this story is exactly that. Ibrahim was pretty much doing everything he could. This is a kid with grit, with resilience, with real courage and actually a lot of bravery and a little bit of bravado possibly to make him get across Africa, but it was a really tough grind until he gets that mobile phone. And that mobile phone was able to transfer that grit and resilience and that human intelligence into stuff that actually changed his life. Helping him get a health card, helping him find out about scholarships to an incredible school in Italy and helping him now go back to school when he had to flee all those years ago. It is incredible. It is a story of our times. That’s what I really love about the story of Ibrahim.

Claudia Edelman: 30:27 But overall like the transformation of technology. I can see it now out working on, for example, all their spaces just like not life-threatening, but also access to Latinas. Edie, Latinas have a huge issue with that technology being a friend or a frenemy when it comes to having access to capital. So Latinos create six times faster than any other group in America, small businesses. And so they start a little kitchen, they start a little business here, but they don’t scale out for more than two or three employees. And that is because we don’t have access to capital, we don’t have a credit history, we don’t have financial literacy. All of those issues can be solved by technology. So Ibrahim’s life and the Latina life who wants to scale up and none of us want to be that entrepreneur. You know, like becoming an employer, having 100 employees is all through technology. I think that in the next decade of action that we’re going to starting 2020, I think that technology has to be the center of everything we’re doing so that we can really achieve the Global Goals.

Edie Lush: 31:34 And I’m so inspired by actually listening to the stories from a lot of our partners from the World Food Programme, from UNICEF, from UNDP of how they’ve all started their own innovation centers and startups almost for entrepreneurs and they are putting technology in the hands of those people who need it but also who can transform their own lives.

Claudia Edelman: 31:55 The one thing that pisses me off dramatically is that we did an episode on migration at the time of the launch of the Global Compact for Migration and that was 2000 what was it? 17! And nevertheless, the conversation was the same we have to humanize the stories of the people. Migration is positive, ancient, and unstoppable. We need to understand migration as opposed to fear it. And here we are, Edie, two years after, one Brexit about to happen, the break of Europe through migration. You know like countries and countries divided by fear, migration being the biggest enemy and the elephant in the room. And yet we still haven’t made a lot of progress. It seems to be stagnant, if not more. I think that we should get every one of our listeners to do something. Think about someone that they know on a paid tribute to a migrant be someone you know in your close family or someone else. The way that we’re trying to do it here because I think that if we’re going to ever break the cycle, we have to do this together and if humanizing migration is the story, then we have to all be part of the solution.

Edie Lush: 33:05 By encouraging our listeners to do that, we can show how the power of technology and social media can break barriers. Tanya Accone at UNICEF has also told us that there are plans to expand this U-Report. 10 agencies across five countries are now moving to launch a version as part of the response to the upheavals in Venezuela. And that’s a great segue to this episode’s facts and actions from Mathias Devi. He’s using innovation specialist at UNICEF’s Office of Innovation. Mathias manages the Global U-Reports platform that has had such a positive impact for Ibrahim

Mathias Devi: 33:44 Fact number one, refugees are a wildly diverse group. Even those coming from the same country. I think this is often forgotten or people are surprised when you mentioned that you’ve sat down and spoke to a doctor, an Instagram influencer, and a member of an indigenous people on the same day. So the word refugee quickly refers to a stereotype, negative stereotype. And I think this is a good fact to keep in mind when speaking about refugees and migration issues. The second fact, knowing that Ibrahim has shared his story on this podcast, is that his story is just one in many and just like Ibrahim, the many children like him want to go to school. This is in fact repeatedly the single most important thing that young people raise when we speak with them through our youth engagement platform – U report. But more than 30 million children are displaced around the world. Who commonly lose between one to four years of school. And that’s a fact. Thirdly, trust is key. This may be more of a perceived effect than a hard fact, but I have experienced over and over again in this work. The trust is so important. Refugees are rarely looking for luxury, but for life, they can rely on, stable access to school, access to reliable services, trustworthy information about their situation. This is exactly what U-Report On the Move is trying to deliver. Reliable information about your situation and the place you’re in, advice in your legal status, referrals to accessible services and so on.

Pause: 35:11 [background music]

Mathias Devi: 35:13 So the first action you can take personally is to remember what a refugee is and what a refugee is not. Retire that stereotypical review of refugees and speak about these issues in the constructive solution-oriented way around the dinner table and in your daily interactions with people. Secondly, support youth to speak up and hear them. Whatever you’re working on, whatever you’re designing, whatever you’re promoting. Remember that 1.8 billion people in your potential audience are children and youth and that 90% of these live in developing countries. This group has lots to say and listening can both improve your work and their lives massively. Lastly, looping these points back into U-Report. I’d like to say that U-Report as a tool for all youth to raise their voices, battle stereotypes, connecting youth to services on a global scale. We’re currently operating in 65 countries with more than 8.5 million users growing by a quarter million users every month. The key to providing ever greater services and reaching more youth is partnerships. We currently have more than 350 partners worldwide, but if you are listening to this and think your company, agency, NGO, the local youth group has something to offer and want to get involved either at a country-specific level or at global level, please don’t hesitate to reach out.

Edie Lush: 36:37 Thanks to Mathias Devi for those facts and actions and thanks to Ibrahim for sharing his story.

Pause: 36:41 [background music]

Claudia Edelman: 36:45 Thanks for listening. Please like us. Subscribe via iTunes or whatever you get your podcasts, and follow us on social media @GlobalGoalsCast. See you next time. Bye-bye.

Edie Lush: 36:56 Adios.

Presenter: 37:01 Global GoalsCast was hosted by Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman. We are editorial gurued by Mike Oreskes, editing and sound production by Simon James. Our operations director is Michelle Cooprider and our interns Tina Pastore and Brittney Segura. Music, in this episode, was courtesy of Universal Production Music, original music by Neil Hale, Angelica Garcia, Simon James, Kaity Crone, and Andrew Phillips. This episode is brought to you by Mastercard, creating scalable solutions for sustainable and inclusive economic growth. Thanks. Also, CBS News Digital and Harman, the official sound of Global GoalsCast.

‘We are True Heroes’ – One Migrant’s Story


His name is Ibrahim Adnan Kondeh. He is one of thousands of young African’s who have crossed the Sahara Desert and the Mediterranean Sea in search of opportunity. Thousands more have died trying. We usually hear the tragedy and the controversy about migration, as cohost Edie Lush notes. So in this episode, Global GoalsCast wants you to meet one migrant and to hear his story, from him. Ibrahim is a remarkable young man. Courageous, resourceful and, it turns out, poetic. 

“In plastic boats, we are choked up as much as they can

   just like fishes in a sardine can. 

Irrespective of our religions, we pray for God’s mercy. 

 For it was only by his grace that we made it through that great sea. 

A true hero is what we are…”

Ibrahim retraces his journey from his village in Sierra Leone to the Libyan seashore. A trip that took him a harrowing nine months. He started as a teenager running away from tribal initiation. But by the time he was done he had joined an extraordinary stream of humanity flowing north. 

A report by the United Nations Development Program shows that Ibrahim is representative of a large group of young migrants from West Africa. They are by no means the poorest or the least educated from their countries, explains Mohamed Yahya, lead author of the report. Indeed, they are prompted to risk the dangerous journey as their rising aspirations outstrip their sense of opportunity at home. Yahya urges both African and European officials to address this opportunity gap. 

This episode also features Ann Cairns, from our sponsor Mastercard. She discusses Mastercard’s Digital Food initiative in partnership with the World Food Programme to provide money to refugees to buy food themselves, along with other basic necessities. 

Featured guests

Ibrahim Adnan Kondeh

Ibrahim Adnan Kondeh, is a young man, 20 years of age, from Sierra Leone. He lived in a village with his family, helping with the farm and local shops. As a result of his family’s huge sacrifice, he used to go to school there, so he wasn’t among the poorest. Sadly, he was forced to escape when approached by a secret society that “grooms boys to become men”, facing tortures and threats. He then went on a journey eventually making his way into Italy. He arrived in Italy as an unaccompanied minor 3 years ago at the age of 17. The way there was not easy. He was kept as a slave in various locations on this journey. His boat was rescued crossing the Mediterranean Sea. His arrival at a reception center for refugees in Calabria was not very welcoming, the center was very crowded and would not offer services, such as education, for minors. After overcoming these roadblocks, and even learning Italian, Ibrahim was recognized as a bright writer, winning renowned competitions, such as the Moleskine Foundation and the U-Report Contests. Once his voice was heard, he became a U-Ambassador and active member on the platform and U-Blogger on the move. Thanks to his active participation, he applied to Refugees Welcome for a chance to be hosted by an Italian family, He was accepted and is now living there. He was also granted the Never Alone bid for a 2-year scholarship at the renowned United World College of the Adriatic.

Mohamed Yahya

Mr. Mohamed Yahya resumed duties as Resident Representative of UNDP Nigeria on 20 June 2019. Prior to his appointment to Nigeria, Mr. Yahya was the Africa Regional Programme Coordinator for  UNDP between October 2014 and June 2019. Based in Addis Ababa, he was responsible for regional development initiatives in support of the African Union and Africa’s Regional Economic Communities. He has also served as UNDP’s post-conflict recovery specialist supporting UNDP interventions in
Afghanistan and Liberia. Before joining the UN, Mr. Yahya worked as a senior peacebuilding advisor for the non-governmental organisation, International Alert, with a focus on West Africa. Mr. Yahya holds a master’s degree in Conflict and Development Studies from the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), University of London and a bachelor’s degree in Politics and History from SOAS, University of London.

Ann Cairns

Ann Cairns, Vice Chairman of Mastercard. In her role as Vice Chairman Ann represents Mastercard around the world, focusing on inclusion, diversity and innovation.  She plays the important role of senior ambassador and executive leader and sits as part of the company’s global management committee. Ann is passionate about the role Mastercard can play in delivering inclusion through innovation and has continued to build new global partnerships with governments, businesses, organizations and NGOs including the World Food Programme. Ann sits on the group board of the Fortune 500 Company Intercontinental Exchange (ICE) and is chair of ICE Clear Europe. Ann has a Pure Mathematics degree from Sheffield University and a M.Sc. with research into medical statistics and honorary doctorate from Newcastle University. 

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of


Mohamed Yahya: 00:00 This is a story of pioneers, a story of adventurers, a story of those who say, my circumstances of my birth shall not limit my dreams.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 00:13 Some of the words that he said to me, I could still remember those like, “I really want to be a lawyer and when I become a lawyer, I’ll have fights against our corrupt leaders that are causing some of us to run away from poverty and stuff”… I had to fend for myself. I had nowhere to go. Throughout the journey, I can’t recall a day that I slept in a house, like a house where there’s a roof on top.

Claudia Edelman: 00:51 Welcome to the Global GoalsCast!

Edie Lush: 00:53 A podcast that explores how to change the world.

Claudia Edelman: 00:56 In this episode, we will introduce you to an extraordinary young man. He’s a migrant from Sierra Leone and so much more.

Edie Lush: 01:05 Claudia, you and I talk to our kids about how to have grit and resilience. I think Ibrahim defines those words. He’s not only brave, he’s studious and he’s a poet. He wrote this about the track he made across the Sahara and the Mediterranean.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 01:22 A true hero is what we are. We may not be recognized but that just what we, yeah.

Claudia Edelman: 01:29 A true hero… when you hear his story you will understand why we say that, and you will experience migration from the migrant’s point of view. Right after this…

Presenter: 01:39 This episode of Global GoalsCast is brought to you by Mastercard. Mastercard is dedicated to building an inclusive world, in which the digital economy works for everyone, everywhere.

Ann Cairns: 01:55 The World Food Programme had a vision that they called it: Digital Food. In other words, actually giving refugees the money and the wherewithal to buy food for themselves instead of parachuting in bags of rice.

Claudia Edelman: 02:09 Later in this episode, you will hear about how Mastercard’s technology helped the World Food Programme feed refugee. And also we want to thank CBS News Digital and Harman, the official sound of the Global GoalsCast.

Claudia Edelman: 02:28 Welcome back, I’m Claudia Romo Edelman.

Edie Lush: 02:29 And I’m Edie Lush. We have spoken here, Claudia, on the Global GoalsCast, about migration and the central role it plays in the global economy and in achieving the Global Goals.

Claudia Edelman: 02:41 There are 260 million migrants in the world!

Edie Lush: 02:44 And you and me are two of them!

Claudia Edelman: 02:47 260,000,002! And there are likely to be many, many more migrants in the years ahead. So we need to understand who the migrants are and why do they make their journeys. We need to understand the four steps of migration and the four milestones: from the moment of departure, the journey, the arrival and the return.

Edie Lush: 03:09 And sadly we don’t hear the migrant stories very often. What we hear about migration is controversy and tragedy.

Mohamed Yahya: 03:18 We’ve had 30,000 Africans drowned in the 4-5 years in the Mediterranean.

Edie Lush: 03:23 This is Mohammad Yahya from the United Nations Development Program. I asked him about the horrifying death of those 39 Vietnamese people in a refrigerated truck in the United Kingdom last week.

Mohamed Yahya: 03:35 The death of the 39 truck is a huge tragedy and a sickening one and I suppose confirms our data in terms of risk and I think more people will unfortunately take this risk. This is why a different system needs to be thought through, because these are people who are chasing a different dream… coming all the way from Asia and this current system unfortunately just empowers human traffickers in many ways.

Edie Lush: 04:01 Later in this episode, Mohammad Yahya, we’ll be back to tell us about the United Nations Development Programme report on what they call irregular migration from Africa to Europe and how important it is for all of us to understand what drives the migrants to take such risks.

Pause: 04:17 [background music]

Edie Lush: 04:19 Claudia, here we go with the Global GoalsCast lexicon. Are you ready?

Claudia Edelman: 04:24 Damelo mami! [Translation: Give it to me, sweetheart!]

Edie Lush: 04:24 Irregular migration. It’s kind of fuzzy. It means without documents or legal permission to enter the countries they’re trying to reach. Irregular in this story led to exploitation, modern slavery and extraordinary risks. All to pursue an aspiration.

Claudia Edelman: 04:43 We are all part of this story. We can look away if we choose and allowed choices to be made on fear and misinformation. Or the alternative that we want you to take is to learn about the facts, to learn about migration and understand migrants, whether they cross the Mediterranean, or the Rio Grande, or if they follow some new silk road from Asia. These people are people, people! Human beings with families and aspirations just like us.

Edie Lush: 05:12 Just like us. I was surprised reading the UN report about who these migrants are and why they leave home.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 05:24 [Ibrahim reciting his poem] We once had a home / to call our own / with friends and loved ones / now a thousand miles away. // We sobbed and cried / as we tell goodbye / for those precious moments / can hardly come by. // Living a beautiful life was a hope / so we dreamt of moving to Europe / with the possibility as thin as a rope. // [reciting continues in the background]

Claudia Edelman: 05:46 We want you to get to know one of these migrants the way we have gotten to know him here. His name: Ibrahim Kondeh.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 05:55 [reciting fades back in] We wanted to keep alive // we are like sheep without a manger / knowing that every second of our lives was in danger. // Forced to work without pay / and if you dare / they pull the trigger. [reciting continues in the background]

Edie Lush: 06:05 He’s from Sierra Leone and he is just the kind of irregular migrant that the UNDP wants us to understand.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 06:12 [reciting fades back in] In a war zone we came unstuck / we made up our minds and said no turning back. // In plastic boats / we will get choked up as much as they can / just like fishes in a sardine can. // Irrespective of our religions / we pray for God’s mercy / which is only by his grace / that we made it through that great sea. // A true hero is what we are / We may not be recognized / but that is just what we are. //

Claudia Edelman: 06:40 The Global GoalsCast team spent hours talking with Ibrahim here.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 06:44 [Edie starts interviewing Ibrahim in the background] This is my first year.

Claudia Edelman: 06:46 Edie was first introduced to him by our partners at UNICEF. She called him to talk about his use of an innovative text message service that helps migrants, but then when she heard his whole story, we wanted more! So our executive editor, Mike Oreskes, called him back and spoke for another two hours.

Mike Oreskes: 07:06 Okay, great. I’m so glad we were able to set this up… [Mike’s voices fades out in the background]

Edie Lush: 07:08 We took a lot of his time, probably when he should have been studying.

Claudia Edelman: 07:13 And even if the quality of the audio is not perfect, we think it’s compelling enough for you to hear it.

Edie Lush: 07:20 We have put this story together so that you can experience Ibrahim’s voyage as we did, from the beginning at home in Sierra Leone.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 07:30 I was living like far away from my parents because, at a very young age, my mom and dad sent me to the nation’s capital Freetown to go to school, because in the village where they we living in the provinces, there was no possibility for me to go to school there, because there was no structure truly. So I was living with my aunt in Freetown. I had the opportunity to see them only during holidays. I was happy going to school like, school was actually something that I was supposed to do, even if I don’t want to because it was like a priority. It’s something that was made known to me even at a tender age, because my parents never had the opportunity to go to school, so when I was younger they tried all their best to send me to school. So I could go to school, get good grades, and then eventually be able to redeem them from poverty.

Edie Lush: 08:34 In 2013, Ibrahim’s father died, leaving his mother with Ibrahim and two younger brothers. But his mother persevered. She kept working and she kept him in school.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 08:46 and so everything was okay. Everything was going normal.

Edie Lush: 08:50 Normal, that is until a trip home from school to visit his mom in their village in 2016.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 08:56 In March, I went on Easter holiday.

Edie Lush: 09:00 Which is when Ibrahim’s aspiration fueled by urban life and Freetown collided with tribal custom from his village.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 09:08 We do have certain things in Sierra Leone that happens during March, the dry season, which is mostly about cultural stuff… secret societies and because I didn’t grew up and my village, so I knew nothing about how things are done there. I didn’t know the rules. It was a time for initiation. Where, they have to catch boys and take them to, for initiation, because they do believe that initiating boys at a very young age is how they could prepare them to be, like good leaders. Anyone who is not a member of them is actually seen as a coward, so a lot of boys, it’s their dream for the day that they will be initiated.

Claudia Edelman: 09:52 What Ibrahim is describing are the tribal secret societies that play an important role in West Africa and those are initiating boys and girls into adulthood.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 10:03 I was not into that. The culture of the bachelor communities where I was born and, if my dad was alive, he would have forced me. But my mom who was there with me, she never wanted me to be part of it. And most importantly, I don’t like the fact that after the initiation, I have to be living with scars all over my body, because I’ve seen so many boys who have been part of the society. The have scars like everlasting scar is I will be with them until they die.

Edie Lush: 10:34 I’ve heard a great deal about the female version of these initiations because for girls, this traditionally involves removing the clitoris. I hadn’t heard as much about the male version, which does not include genital mutilation, but rather knife slashes that resemble claws or teeth across the back. Ibrahim wanted no part of this.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 10:55 So on that day, I was out with my mom, like at veranda of our house, and my mom has a little table where she sells foodstuff like biscuits, sweets. And so I was helping her pack in those materials into a box and then a group of men came around the town. So a lot of people run into their houses and I was out, I didn’t know that I was supposed to run because I’m not one of them. Because actually if you are not a member of a particular group that comes out on a specific day, you are not supposed to see them or neither be out whilst they are in a parade.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 11:39 And so, I was taken with them together with seven other boys from the village who got caught as well. We walked about two to three hours getting to the initiation place and I was told that I was caught not only because I was outside and I, I saw them when they came, but because I had to like represent my father to take the place of my father, because he was once a member, and it is obligatory that every first child of a family must take up the responsibility of the dad when he’s late. I wasn’t aware of that. I denied it at first but I have no power because they were huge guys. And so the initiation place was actually in a bush where it was divided into two places. Like the first side was for the new initiates and the second place was for the members of the society. Where I am during the day just stand outside. So under a big tree while they go on with some of their process, initiation process.

Pause: 12:43 [background music]

Ibrahim Kondeh: 12:43 I was there for about a week, together with different boys, and so every day they would go into town in search of new boys or food. So they might leave us with one or two people to guard us. That was when I ran away and I walked through the bush during the night, because it was night, until in the morning hours, like seven, I happened to like be on a highway. So I met with some guys who were loading some goods into a truck and I asked whether I could help, if they will take me to Guinea. The guy was like okay, no problem. So I helped and after we finished packing, we went to Guinea, until Conakry. I didn’t want to return home, because I was scared of being caught again. I didn’t know anyone that lives in Guinea. I had to like fend for myself. The very first night I slept on a stall, at the lorry park, and so in the morning, I’ll go outside like asks people if I could do little domestic work for them and get something, money or food, just to sustain myself. So that continued for several days until I had one lady who employed me actually because she sells mineral water. I saved up money for about three months and I’m moved to Mali mainly because of the currency rate. I was still thinking of like, how I can get something and send for my mom, so I wanted to get to a place that has a currency that is a bit higher.

Claudia Edelman: 14:44 After seven months in Guinea, he moved to Mali and there he spotted some familiar faces.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 14:51 One day I met with a group of boys who were actually from, from Sierra Leone who, whom I knew before.

Edie Lush: 14:57 Among these 10 boys was a friend from childhood named Daniel.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 15:02 I was happy because when I left home he was the only person that I came across who knows me, actually. When he told me about what is his journey was, I said, okay, you are my friend. I know you. So I trusted him that much. I said, well, we could start everything together. They told me that they’re moving. North Africa. Algeria in particular for work, because they were told that in Algeria there are a lot of job opportunities where people work in construction sites and it gets paid a lot of money.

Edie Lush: 15:40 Ibrahim and Daniel had made a pact to travel together. Ibrahim is no longer just a teenager running away from his village culture. He and Daniel and the other boys joined a great migration North.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 15:52 I agreed to move with him and so we left Mali. We had to pay with all the money that I earned from the work that I was doing. I paid from Mali to be taken to Algeria. So it was a full bus, very full bus. We sat in a group like people from Sierra Leone and we all just went to the backseat. We were there talking to each other.

Claudia Edelman: 16:19 Hour after hour. He and Daniel talked…

Ibrahim Kondeh: 16:22 Our discussions are mostly of home, like, how we left home… what our intentions when we might have money… what we will once we go back in our country. And he always has that dream-like he wanted it to be a lawyer. Some of the words that he said to me, I could still remember was like: “I really want to be a lawyer and when I become a lawyer, I will have fights against our corrupt leaders that are causing us… some of us to go away from poverty and stuff”. And so you can see like the passion in his eyes.

Edie Lush: 17:04 Rolling east across the Sahal neither Daniel nor Ibrahim could have possibly known all the trials that lay ahead, but they would soon learn that they had entered a very precarious world, vulnerable at every turn.

Claudia Edelman: 17:23 We will rejoin their journey in a moment with first a break, so that Ann Cairns from our sponsor, Mastercard, can tell us all about technology that helped the World Food Program feed refugees.

Pause: 17:38 [background music]

Ann Cairns: 17:38 We actually began in 2012 working with them on helping refugees as they moved from Syria into Jordan, and then Lebanon and further afield. Get access to food and the World Food Programme had a vision that they called it: Digital Food. In other words, actually giving refugees the money and the wherewithal to buy food for themselves instead of parachuting in bags of rice, basically, because the lands that they were moving into were very fertile and the first thing that we did was roll out cards so that these refugees could actually shop in local shops. And not only were they able to buy fresh food for themselves and their families, but also the self-esteem of basically choosing the food that you wanted to buy was huge. And of course it had a positive impact on the local farmers. Now, one of the things that we found out was particularly for example, in the refugee camps, we could track exactly what was bought and sometimes it was medicine by the way. And we could tell if the medicine was running out and actually get people to order more. But also we found that the highest amount of food that was bought was actually powdered milk, because with so many babies in those camps. And when we looked at that data and shared it with the World Food Programme, they actually could go and negotiate a discount from the providers of powdered milk, because they’re buying for millions of people rather than just each individual. So this is a great example of how you can use data for good and how you can use technology to actually be able to predict, what food you need or what medication you need.

Edie Lush: 19:25 Thank you to Ann Cairns from Mastercard.

Claudia Edelman: 19:34 Ibrahim and Daniel had joined the stream of migrants. The migrants were flowing toward North Africa, but in the eye of the corrupt and the criminal, that human’s dream looks like a revenue stream. Those migrants are easy to exploit. Their status makes it hard for them to turn to the police or other authority for protection. In Niger, Ibrahim and Daniel were told they were changing busses. The next bus would be right along, but it wasn’t, they were left standing in a parking lot with many others.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 20:09 We were dumped in Niger, as a huge number of us. Those that can afford it at that particular time had to pay again to move.

Claudia Edelman: 20:18 For two weeks, Ibrahim and Daniel helped load and unload trucks in that parking lot. But finally, they got a ride as part of their payment.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 20:29 So there are many cars because it’s like a bus stop. Cars coming from different parts of Niger and around some other countries. So we started to work with one of these big trucks. They used to move with goods from the capital city of Niger to the border in Algeria, so we sometimes pack loads for them. So we did it for two weeks or three weeks. And so the man actually said, okay, the next trip that we took to the border, he just left us there as part of our payment.

Pause: 20:59 [background music]

Edie Lush: 21:04 They’ve made it to Algeria. Ibrahim and Daniel scratched out a routine, squatting with other migrants in a partially finished building without a roof. Three to four months, spending his days with Daniel, sometimes locked in, other days allowed out to work.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 21:25 So in Algeria, we went to a camp like where many migrants… where many people from different parts in Western Africa were. So they just stayed there. In the morning, we’d go out in search of jobs. Where there is like construction sites, then worked throughout the day, and in the evening, there was a little store where they’d sell foodstuff. So every evening back from work, we’d grab some foodstuff, like rice, vegetables, and then come back to the unfinished building and try to cook. But actually waiting to cook, it’s always like in line because there are a couple of other people that wanted to cook as well. So we might end up cooking around 11-10 at night. And then after food, we draw our cardboards to sleep because there is nothing like a bed. It’s like it’s like an open space.

Claudia Edelman: 22:22 Ibrahim and Daniel met some traffickers in the camp and after a few months they decided to go with them East to Libya. But again, things didn’t go according to the plan.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 22:37 We paid the traffickers about 300 or 400 US dollars to take us to Tripoli, which is the Capital, where the port is. Where people used to move. But it didn’t, like, go as we planned. They told us it would take us two days to reach in Tripoli. But we actually spent one week in the desert before we were able to see normal land or buildings. It takes so long because one the distance and two, we had a breakdown. And uh, one thing about, about the desert, there’s no specific route to go. So people use different routes and some of them just follow the traces of other cars that have passed by. And most times that their security personnel, little soldiers or other gangs, that do chase people in the desert and always, they are always armed. And so, we reached to a certain point that we had to wait, where they knew that it might be a potential place where they could get in contracts with these different gangs. Another thing that is on, we bought it actually, people only knew about the amounts of people that die in the sea, but actually there’s a huge number of people that die in the desert… Going through the desert, you could see like fossils like remains of people that have just been dumped, left to dry out in the sand. People that died out of dehydration. People that just died out in the cars and there was no way to wait. It was just taken among children out and sometimes you just think about that maybe the next minute, it’s me. You have no hope of seeing the next day you just said, okay, I’m alive for this minute. Maybe the next minute. I’ll be dead.

Edie Lush: 24:39 Before reaching their promised destination of Tripoli. The journey comes to an unexpected halt. They’ve arrived in Sabha, a notorious hive of human trafficking. It’s hard from our modern vantage point to believe a place this lawless still exists on Earth. Ibrahim and Daniel asked the trafficker why they weren’t going on to Tripoli.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 25:00 He just told us that that is where his journey has ended, that we need to pay again in order to continue. And so we were then given mobile phones to call our parents back home to request for money before we could be free. And so people who have the chance to call their parents for money would then be transferred to Tripoli or to wherever there is the sea. And so I couldn’t call my mom by then because she knew that I went to Mali. But when I left Mali. She didn’t know. So I didn’t call her because she couldn’t afford to give me that money at that time. And that stress I didn’t call. So people who can’t pay will stay there. And then there are different building construction sites or works that happens on the farm. So if Libyans that live in that area, if they want like assistance or they want a laborer, they will come to this site and then ask the leader of the camp and then the leader would give out people to go and work in that particular place. I couldn’t exit the gate without their permission. And I would only go out in a car, in their car. That is when we are going out for work. And when we get paid, the money will never be in our hands. It will be paid directly to the leader of the camp. We would never have that money.

Claudia Edelman: 26:38 They had gone from being migrants to being captives, modern slaves.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 26:44 So it’s like, you have to work in order to pay for… like a ransom actually, so I was there for a couple of months, like working daily.

Edie Lush: 26:56 The business model of the traffickers is to move people long after they’ve worked for awhile…

Ibrahim Kondeh: 27:02 Every Friday 26 people are suppose to leave. And so one evening while he was counting, there were only 25 and so he just saw me because I was one of the youngest little boys among a group and so they just were come go with them. So that was when I had to leave that place. That was the only opportunity. I had to leave on that faithful evening to get out with other people. And then we went to Sabratha, which is like the seaside,

Claudia Edelman: 27:37 nine months after running away from his village on that day in March, Ibrahim and his friend Daniel reached the Southern shore of the Mediterranean.

Ibrahim Kondeh: 27:51 Throughout the journey, I can’t recall a day that I slept in a house where there’s a roof on top, I can’t recall. And so at the seaside, it was very cold and very cold. It was in December, very cold and we had to be outside and we get food, a loaf of bread, once a day. And so I was there for like two weeks because we had to wait for the construction of the, the dingies and also the weather condition. And so when the time came one evening around 12 to 12:30 AM, on the 12th of December, I still remember, they called us, we were about 130 to 140 of us loaded and that on that boat that… in that morning.

Edie Lush: 28:51 And in the gloom of that cold night, Ibrahim in the prow of the overcrowded boat and Daniel crammed in further back, set off across the Mediterranean Sea. Both tragedy and success. Lay ahead.

Claudia Edelman: 29:10 And we will tell you the rest of Ibrahim’s story in the next episode of the Global GoalsCast, but now we want to pause to look more deeply into how Ibrahim’s voyage illustrates so many similar journeys.

Mohamed Yahya: 29:28 This is a story of pioneers, a story of adventurers, a story of those who say that my circumstances of my birth shall not limit my dreams that I have for myself and if I don’t meet it at home, I’m happy to cross any barrier to achieve it. So it was really important for us to tell those stories and voices in a balanced but in a way that most people can access. We wanted that because we wanted to inform policy-makers that these unknown faces that we hear drown in the seas or exploited or enslaved in some parts in some North African countries. We wanted to put faces and we wanted their voices to be at the center of … of future debates.

Edie Lush: 30:18 That’s MohamedYahya of the UN Development Programme, explaining why his report included a series of video interviews with individual migrants. They’re actually incredible films. I encourage you to go look at them on the internet, as well as the findings from nearly 2,000 interviews with African migrants who had reached Europe. And one very important finding was that many of those migrants had a job at home or like Ibrahim were in school.

Mohamed Yahya: 30:47 That does not mean that African young people are not looking for jobs or neither doesn’t mean that employment is not an important factor. What it means is that the quality of employment matters and that people’s aspirations and the power of their dreams are much bigger than only economic factors. And then related to the risk itself, what was very interesting is if you go to many African capitals, you see a lot of the discourse around whether if they only knew about the risk, maybe they will not have taken this journey, this dangerous journey. But what we found was that although 93% of those who migrated, experienced extreme distress and found the journey itself to be extremely dangerous, but only 2% say knowing what we know now will not have done it. So the majority of them will still have come. This paints a different picture of what we hear normally. One thing we know is that the status quo does not work for young Africans or Africa in general. Africa is losing those, it has invested in, but also it doesn’t work for many Europeans who find irregular migration itself something that concerns them and a sense of losing control over their borders. So how do we move the discourse of migration to a new level with the evidence we’ve provided? And that is essentially, uh, what, what that report aims to do.

Edie Lush: 32:15 For me, the most amazing point there was that only 2% wouldn’t have done that same journey. Knowing how dangerous it was. That to me is extraordinary. By 2030, Africa will have 1 billion young people and Africa is not equipped to receive that amount of youth. They don’t have enough schools, they don’t have enough jobs. First cities, second cities, third cites are growing at the pace that is like incredible. And while economies are growing in Africa, so is inequality, and so you will expect more people to take the risk that 2%, you know like only 2% would not do it, to do more because their dreams are not confined, their infrastructures are. So as a society we have to really embrace the migration debate and try to see how those frameworks are really gonna be not only good to have, but essential to continue understanding what will be a natural trajectory of the population.

Edie Lush: 33:21 One of the recommendations of the report was to work more on these legal pathways, in fact to encourage when possible circular migration so that you can come if you want to go to Europe to work. And then if you want to, you can come back home.

Mohamed Yahya: 33:39 What resonates in the report is that this sense that young people do not feel that their countries offer them ladders of opportunity. A sense that there’s a ceiling or a fence, essentially there cultural fences, political fences and an economic fences. And on the cultural side is this deep sense that being young is seen as a huge disadvantage in many of African cultures. So if you’re young, you are ambitious, you are creative, in most parts of the world that would be an advantage. But in many parts of the African continent, there’s fences and barriers for young people. So that is what the story of the scaling fences is also in the sense that those who not only are they scaling legal fences in terms of coming to Europe and, and finding barriers to their dreams, but they actually come from or have already scaled several fences back home… and culture seems to be one of them as well.

Claudia Edelman: 34:43 I remember when we were, I think that it as like our second or third episode ever – sounds like an eternity back then – of season one when I was still working for the Office of the Secretary-General while working on the Global Compact for Migration. When we did this episode on migration saying: one migration is ancient, unstoppable and positive. And second that we need to get more on the understanding of the human story of what would be the circumstances for you to take such a desperate move as leaving everything that you know, knowing that is going to be horrible and nevertheless do it. So there’s a deja vu moment that I’m having here on listening to these and saying like we still have to do more to make people feel that they have the pros and the cons of migration so that they can make up their minds and understand a phenomena that is so important for our future as opposed to just dealing with the fear.

Pause: 35:43 [background music]

Claudia Edelman: 35:47 Ibrahim’s story fits the UN report in another way.

Mohamed Yahya: 35:52 You’re not getting the least educated, low-skilled people. What you are getting is aspirational, dynamic, people who want to improve their lives. And that more will be coming. The trend is not one that over the long run that reduces. So it’s time to start looking at legal pathways. By legal pathways, we referred to the issue of labor migration. What do we see in that report is there is a need in some parts of the European continent for the labor that these young people provide. How can we put in place something that is manageable because of the irregular nature of the migration itself? It creates anti-migration feelings in Europe because no ordinary person will want to sense that they have lost control of who comes into their country. So once you have a legal pathway, we are confident, the irregular nature and the anxiety that is related with the ungoverness of illegal migration may go down, but it will need courage. Courage on both sides and it will need a new debate around migration. And we hope this report provides for Europeans a sense of understanding who’s coming and maybe a debate around what kind of migration Europe needs.

Claudia Edelman: 37:16 Understanding data, facts, stories. This is what we want to provide to you so that you understand migration at heart.

Edie Lush: 37:24 And before I let Mohamed go, I asked him to provide this episode’s facts and actions.

Mohamed Yahya: 37:31 Fact one is that most of the African migrants, they are on average more educated than their peers back home. Secondary under some university-level education. Fact two is that those who are more likely to want to go back after been in Europe or those who are working. This is really important evidence that making life difficult for them, not allowing them to work in Europe is creating the opposite incentive, of staying rather than going back to their home country. Another fact that it will be interesting is the risk of the journey, I mean is overpowered by the power of dreams of re-imagine in your future. So the 2% saying that knowing what they know, they will not have done it, is a very, very small and shockingly small, considering the risk that is associated with the journey.

Edie Lush: 38:24 And tell me three actions that our listeners, if they care about these issues, could go out and take.

Mohamed Yahya: 38:31 One is supporting the transformation of Africa, not through aid only, but through trade and other aspects. So the relationship between Africa and Europe has to be one of a mutually beneficial system. Structurally transforming Africa is one of the things that will then allow young people to want to stay in their own countries. At least give them that option. Second is that legal pathways are a really, really important. There is no getting out of this politically. It may be very difficult now, but the entire discussion around creating legal pathways, this is what the Global Compact calls for the open migration, creating processes whereby people can come through labor migration. It doesn’t have to be permanent, but it has to be legal. And then the final part is changing the discourse of migration from what it has been to one that is much more sober that is informed by evidence.

Edie Lush: 39:32 Thank you to Mohamed Yahya of the UN Development Programme for those facts and actions and thank you to Ibrahim Kondeh for sharing his story. And we’ll be returning to it and our next episode.

Claudia Edelman: 39:42 And thank you all for listening! Please like and subscribe via iTunes or whatever you get your podcasts from and follow us on social media at Global GoalsCast. See you next time!

Edie Lush: 39:55 And give us five stars! Don’t forget the stars! We love those.

Claudia Edelman: 39:58 See you, Edie! Safe travels from the desert!

Edie Lush: 40:07 Adios!

Claudia Edelman: 40:07 Bye, bye!

Credits: 40:07 Global GoalsCast was hosted by Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman. We are editorial gurued by Mike Oreskes, editing and sound production by Simon James. Our operations director is Michelle Cooprider, and welcome to our new intern Tina Pastore. Music in this episode was by Neil Hale, Angelica Garcia, Simon James, Kaity Crone, Aasheesh Paliwal and Andrew Phillips.

Claudia Edelman: 40:38 This episode is brought to you by Mastercard, creating scalable solutions for sustainable and inclusive economic growth. And thanks also to CBS News Digital, and to Harman, the official sound of the Global GoalsCast.

Maybe the Poor won’t always be with us


Is it possible to eradicate extreme poverty? Here is the remarkable thing. For the first time in history, the answer is yes. Co-hosts Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman talk about the new thinking about how to end the worst poverty. Macro solutions like growth, trade and migration still matter, a lot, they agree. But so do local solutions. Tanya Accone of Unicef explains how a failed effort to involve Silicon Valley in anti-poverty efforts produced a different approach in which solutions are developed with local communities not just for them. A good example from Uganda is Spouts of Water, which has invented clay pot filters that cost no more to use than the previous system of burning wood or coal to boil the water. Plus, Ugandans like the flavor! One of the basic lessons is that to help very poor people, often at the end of long dirt paths or isolated in slums, solutions must be designed for their situations, Accone explains. Context is crucial.

Edie and Claudia also discuss the meaning of two Nobel prizes that connect directly to eradicating poverty – the prize in economics for the new field of research-based solutions and the peace prize to Abiy Ahmed, Prime Minister of Ethiopia, for his efforts to create stability in the Horn of Africa, one of the world’s poorest regions.

Ending extreme poverty is the first of the U.N.’s 17 Sustainable Development Goals.

Edie points out that the idea we can even talk about ending poverty as a serious goal captures how far the world has come. Both proportionally and numerically, the number of poor people has been shrinking for decades. Much of this has been the result of broad economic growth, particularly in China.

But that’s left us with some of the most difficult situations, for example in rural India and sub-Saharan Africa. It will require sustained effort on multiple fronts to address these areas. 

Facts and Actions are offered in this episode by Saskia Bruysten, co-founder of Yunus Social Business, which invests in sustainable businesses such as Spouts of Water.

Ann Cairns, Executive Vice Chairman of our sponsor, Mastercard, describes their Hundred Million Meals program to keep children in school by making sure they are fed. The effort is run jointly with the World Food Program, a Global GoalsCast partner.

Featured guests

Tanya Accone

Tanya Accone’s career has focused on helping international public and private sector organizations understand how to amplify their impact through the convergence of people, ecosystems and innovation. She is committed to applying innovation for social impact and as a public good, especially with and for young people. Accone has been at the forefront of advocating for and leading ground-breaking initiatives at the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF). As Senior Advisor on Innovation at Scale, she has led UNICEF’s Global Innovation Centre to support 90 countries to identify, adopt and adapt innovative solutions that have changed the lives of 180 million children and their communities. 

Saskia Bryusten

A leader in the social business movement, Saskia Bruysten co-founded Yunus Social Business (YSB) together with Nobel Peace Laureate Prof. Muhammad Yunus. YSB is a Philanthropic Venture Fund that turns donations into investments in sustainable social businesses that provide employment, education, healthcare, clean water and clean energy to millions of people worldwide. Under Saskia’s leadership, YSB has also been working with over 20 global corporations to help them use their core competencies to address social problems. She was appointed to the EU Commission’s expert group on social business and has advised on Ban Ki-Moon’s UN MDG Advocacy Group. Prior to YSB, she was Co-CEO of the Grameen Creative Lab and a senior management consultant at the Boston Consulting Group. She holds an MBA from the European Business School in Germany and an MSc in International Relations from the London School of Economics and Political Science. 

Paul Matovu

Paul has worked in multiple charitable entrepreneurial roles in Uganda prior to joining SPOUTS.  He brings in extensive experience in impact evaluation and has been working with SPOUTS for over four years.

David Yin

Daniel is the CEO of SPOUTS of Water, a social enterprise dedicated to providing clean water to Uganda.  He worked in the financial industry in the U.S. for over 5 years prior to joining SPOUTS of Water. He has previous experience in scaling internal and financial operations in SMEs and has been leading SPOUTS for the past two years.

Ann Cairns

In her role as Vice Chairman Ann represents Mastercard around the world, focusing on inclusion, diversity and innovation.  She plays the important role of senior ambassador and executive leader and sits as part of the company’s global management committee. Ann is passionate about the role Mastercard can play in delivering inclusion through innovation and has continued to build new global partnerships with governments, businesses, organizations and NGOs including the World Food Programme. Ann sits on the group board of the Fortune 500 Company Intercontinental Exchange (ICE) and is chair of ICE Clear Europe. Ann has a Pure Mathematics degree from Sheffield University and a M.Sc. with research into medical statistics and honorary doctorate from Newcastle University.

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of


Helene Dufour: 00:00 Our goal is to make sure that the fight against poverty is based on scientific evidence. Extract from the idea that often the poor are reduced to caricature and often even people who tried to help them do not actually understand what are the deep root of the problems that are addressing the poor.

Tanya Accone: 00:21 People that had expert knowledge on business modeling on, you know, the actual filtration techniques but completely not matched to the context that we were asking them to solve for

Pause: 00:36 [background music]

Tanya Accone: 00:36 In innovation, we often say that technology is just 10%, but 90% is about people and so really having that people focus and focus on designing with, not for those communities is sort of a fundamental way that we have learned to work.

Daniel Yin: 00:54 The cofounders and the management team really reached out to the community and to see what they prefer in their water. After doing about three years of R and D, we realized that ceramic water filters was the solution we wanted to provide to the Ugandan population.

Claudia Edelman: 01:18 Welcome to the Global GoalsCast!

Edie Lush: 01:20 The podcast that explores how to change the world.

Claudia Edelman: 01:23 In this episode, the latest on global goal 1: eradicating extreme poverty. The fact that we can even have this conversation, Edie, reflects one of the greatest achievements of human history. The number of profoundly poor people in the world has been declining fo half a century! We’re that close!

Edie Lush: 01:43 But getting it close isn’t getting it done. Traveling this last mile may well be the hardest. It’s gonna take a new kind of thinking to end poverty and it will require the inclusion of poor people themselves in that thinking and in the doing. We’re going to tell you all about that right after this.

Presenter: 02:04 This episode of Global GoalsCast is brought to you by Mastercard. Mastercard is dedicated to building an inclusive world in which the digital economy works for everyone, everywhere.

Ann Cairns: 02:16 The world really wasn’t designed with girls in mind, and education is one of those things where there has been an imbalance between the number of boys and girls going to school. Later in this episode, y’all hear about Mastercard’s 100 Million Meal Challenge, keeping kids in school by making sure they are fed. Thanks also to CBS News Digital and to Harman, the official sound of Global GoalsCast.

Claudia Edelman: 02:46 Welcome back. I’m Claudia Romo Edelman.

Edie Lush: 02:48 and I’m Edie Lush. Jesus said it, “The poor you will always have with you”.

Claudia Edelman: 02:53 Or as Moses put it, “There will always be poor in the land”.

Edie Lush: 02:57 But what if they were wrong? What if we could eradicate poverty or at least the very worst poverty?

Claudia Edelman: 03:04 Well, I was there, in 2015, when the United Nations said that it could be done! And the point was made dramatically. Ending extreme poverty was made the very first of the 17 sustainable development goals, and my former boss Ban Ki-Moon, who was Secretary General summed up the history when he said,

Ban Ki-Moon: 03:23 We are the first generation that can put an end to poverty.

Edie Lush: 03:31 It’s such a big ambition. I’m not sure we really grasp it. And Claudia, at the risk of taking the religious references too far, I went to the Bible of the Global Goalscast. My copy of Hans Rosling’s book, Factfullness. In 1800, almost everyone about 85 and a 100 people lived in what today we would call extreme poverty on less than the equivalent of $2 a day. But those numbers have improved, dramatically, and more or less steadily. In the 1960s, we passed a milestone, where less than half the people in the world lived in extreme poverty.

Claudia Edelman: 04:07  And today, only about 9% live below that extreme poverty line. So, the progress is amazing. And nevertheless, 9% is still about 700 million people. And those are the people who we’ll be talking about today, because we need to understand deeply what it will take to end extreme poverty now, that it has become the exception rather than the rule of human life.

Edie Lush: 04:36 Exactly. This is a very exciting moment. In fact, the Nobel committee’s awarded not one, but two Nobel Prizes this year for work that leads directly to ending poverty.

Claudia Edelman: 04:46 And we will talk later about those prizes in economics and the Nobel peace prize. But the big message was simple. Ending global poverty requires facts on the ground, on locally tailored actions and we have to take them now.

Edie Lush: 05:00 And to take a close look at these ideas. We found a guide at our beloved partner, UNICEF, a woman like you who really gets it.

New Speaker: 05:11 My name is Tanya Accone and I’m UNICEF’s Senior Advisor on Innovation at Scale.

Claudia Edelman: 05:17 There are two things about Tanya that make her a knowledgeable guide, I would say. First, is the way she grew up in South Africa…

Tanya Accone: 05:24 As someone who started off life in quite an impoverished kind of contexts themselves, I can sort of see that connections of everything to kind of Goal 1, because so many decisions that are really difficult for families and young people in communities to make have an underlying economic disadvantage as a major driver.

Claudia Edelman: 05:42 And then, second, there was how one of her early efforts to combat poverty ended up in a heartache and frustration. The big brains of Silicon Valley couldn’t grasp how different life is when you live on $1.90 a day. Well from that failure emerged, a new way of thinking about how to end poverty, as she told us…

Tanya Accone: 06:08 A number of years back, we were looking at innovation as an opportunity to do something different that really accelerates and exponentially improves our results and the capability to deliver more to children in their communities around the world with less ideally. And so we thought a place where that’s just a hotbed of great ideas and disruptive thinking is Silicon Valley and we want to disrupt development in order to do better. So what better place could there be than to sit ourselves down with some of the Valley’s, most cutting edge thinkers and think through these problems? We’re really interested in a couple of different challenges. So one of them is in the area of water and sanitation, and this is really key for UNICEF because in the development sector it’s one area that we are responsible for no matter where, no matter when. And we wanted to get ideas from people around how would you solve this massive challenge? Which is essentially also a massive market opportunity of getting clean water to people no matter where they are. And it could have been anything from water quality monitoring to monitoring with a water points or are working or not. So it could have been a mobile app, it could be geospatial solutions, it could be really practical filtering type things. The door was open.

Edie Lush: 07:28 And so what were the solutions that these folks in Silicon Valley had?

Tanya Accone: 07:33 If there were two characteristics that they had in common, it was one overwhelmingly just could not imagine the kind of context that we’re talking about. Even though, you know, we unpacked, here’s the persona that you’re solving for, this is what they earn. They earn, you know, a $1.90 a day, suggesting that someone is going to go to the local council office or something like that. That doesn’t work because the cost of that action, which seems like nothing in a industrialized country, is, is a massive cost. And I think the other piece that they couldn’t really conceive of was just what does living on a $1.90 actually mean? Cause I mean we all should know how much money that is, but I think it was just unimaginable. So to unpack, say a couple of the solutions that came out, particularly around water purification, we had a group that came up with a solution for a very high quality water filtration system that was intended to go to villages, but it was sort of the size of a container. So to get it anywhere it had to go on kind of a flatbed truck. And when you’re talking about last mile delivery, meaning that last mile, or in most cases, that last many miles, are winding pathways, their foot paths, and some cases, you’re going by donkey are going by, you know, foot, you’re going by bicycle if you’re enough to have one. So you’re certainly cannot be tracking something on the back of a flatbed truck. And there was another idea around how a version of that could be used in emergencies, which is another area that UNICEF is, you know, very involved in and of course has to deliver clean water in those situations. But the solution there was around being able to fly these in on helicopter. So flying in something by a helicopter is an incredible expense and that just doesn’t kind of compute when you’re talking about the costs, the accessibility, etc.

Tanya Accone: 09:28 And then when I looked at examples that people had for ideas for households, so not at the whole village, but let’s see, what could we provide each household to use in terms of getting safe water. And there are already a number of, of approaches that people use. So they use chlorine straining. I mean there were a lot of just very simple techniques that are currently in use. But instead what we got was a whole business plan that was sort of for a filter system as similar, but it was not. But some of that in concept to, a Britta filter, or a pure water filter and the business plan was that, you know, we’d give the jug and three filters away for free and then we were going to make money off selling the filters. And again, that had had no relationship to how much money people have, what they were going to be able to afford, distribution of these things, you know, not understanding, you’re not talking about going to the supermarket to buy a filter. This is not the reality that people are living in. And then of course, worst of all, not really thinking about the whole waste-stream. So after a month you’re finished with this filter. What exactly is happening to it? So I think there was just this fundamental mismatch. So people that had expert knowledge on business modeling, the actual filtration techniques, but completely not matched to the context that we were asking them to solve for.

Edie Lush: 10:52 What did you do next? You went to Africa in places where people were living in the lowest quintile and asked them to help you design. Is that right?

Tanya Accone: 11:02 That’s right. And we’ve kind of built on that where we have very much a human-centered design or design thinking based practice because with, you know, that’s really an important way of being able to level the playing field of ideas and needs, in a context where you’re pulling together many stakeholders. So it’s really important to, especially where you have representatives of those marginal communities that they feel as empowered and as equal to others that you’re going to bring into that same room. And what we found is by looking at and with communities and guiding was facilitating a process around them, exploring what their greatest challenges are, you can come up with much more relevant solutions that are immediately informed by the context. And what we’ve done is added to that the sort of the expertise of Silicon Valley but not in terms of you design the solution, but in terms of help us think through ways to, you know, strengthen this. And those are the things that have actually scaled most effectively to more places serving in some cases 180 million people today, some of them in 60 countries. So really powerful. And I think in innovation, we often say, that technology is just 10% but 90% is about people. And so really having that people focus and focus on designing with, not for, those communities is sort of a fundamental way that we have learned to work.

Claudia Edelman: 12:35 When we come back, we will check out how the signing with a community in Uganda produced a clean water solution that worked.

Edie Lush: 12:42 But first, here’s Ann Cairns from our sponsor at Mastercard to tell us about a program Mastercard supported to keep kids in school.

Ann Cairns: 12:51 The world really wasn’t designed with girls in mind. It’s been designed in a way that don’t really meet the lives of women and women as they’re growing up. And education is one of those things where there has been an imbalance between the number of boys and girls going to school. And what we’ve seen is that if schools are open and parents know that their children can be fed, then they’ll send both their boys and their girls to school. In Mali, there were recent funding challenges that forced 40% of the World Food Programme canteens to close down. And the interesting thing here was that the regular attendance of the schools that were affected fell by 90% so this really gives you a feeling that those parents are sending their kids to school so that they can be fed. And now Mastercard is the top funder of the schools in Mali and we helped the World Food Programme reopen the canteens and actually expand to new locations. The student retention rate for the schools increased to 96% from an average of 63%, so it was really very impactful.

Edie Lush: 14:08 And tell me about this 100 Million Meal Challenge. Why did you choose 100 million?

Ann Cairns: 14:16 Here at MasterCard, we deal in billions of people and… so to us we wanted to target something which seemed a reasonable goal that was going to affect the lives of children all over the world. There are around 80 million people who are hungry every day on this planet. And so by aiming for a hundred million meals, we were effectively feeding the world for a day. The really good news is that we’ve actually exceeded our target earlier this year, which was very exciting. And I think it really motivated everyone around the world. Our employees, for sure, but also many of our customers.

Edie Lush: 15:00 That was Ann Cairns from our sponsor, Mastercard.

Claudia Edelman: 15:02 Mastercard! It’s really great to have their support for another season! They’re so great and they have great stories!

Edie Lush: 15:10 Right? I feel very supported.

Claudia Edelman: 15:12 Yeah, I feel the love!

Pause: 15:17 [background music]

Claudia Edelman: 15:17 So before the break we heard Tanya Accone describe how projects designed from Silicon Valley did not work for really poor people because they designed for the community, but not with them. But we found one of our partners that was doing things with the community.

Edie Lush: 15:33 Yes, Yunus Social Business. They invest in local businesses that help to improve living conditions. One of those businesses that they invested in is called Spouts of Water. And Spouts of Water solved the very problem of clean water. They had confounded all of those folks in Silicon Valley. I spoke to Daniel Yin, the CEO.

Pause: 15:52 [background music]

Edie Lush: 15:55 So tell me about SPOUTS and tell me about the technology that it has produced. It looks like a flower pot, but it’s not. It’s a filter. How does it work?

Daniel Yin: 16:06 Embedded within this filter, there are microscopic pores that remove all of the bacteria and protozoa from the water. So if you pour in any type of water, no matter how turbid it is, only clean water goes through and all of the germs and bacteria are removed.

Edie Lush: 16:24 How did the founders of SPOUTS come up with the design? I’m interested in how they worked with the community to do that.

Daniel Yin: 16:32 The whole design process was a collective effort all the way from our founders and our management team to the customers. The co-founders came in 2012 and they had the R and D process for about three years. So in these three years, the co-founders and the management team really reached out to the community and to see what they prefer in their water. What we found out is that a lot of families in the village, once they treat their water by boiling it or through chlorination tablets, they store the water in clay pots, giving it that distinct clay tastes, which a lot of families are accustomed to. So after doing about three years of R and D, we realized that ceramic water filters was the solution we wanted it to provide to the Ugandan population.

Edie Lush: 17:22 They use two types of surplus clay, yellow and black, which they buy from local farmers. Paul Matovu who runs SPOUTS, NGO side of the business knows firsthand the negative impact that dirty drinking water can have.

Paul Matovu: 17:36 More than 46% of Ugandans, actually, boil their water using the firewood or charcoal and they spend a lot of money. But also I was working with schools at that time before they joined. So there were lots waterborne disease cases in schools, because the schools don’t have the money to prepare drinking water for the kids. So when kids fall sick, they cannot attend school due to illness. So there are very, very many factors, but mostly to me it was mostly about the environmental, bit of it, reduction in carbon emissions, but also the social aspect of people not having to fall sick, people not having to spend on preventable waterborne diseases.

Edie Lush: 18:17 I asked Daniel how much these filters cost.

Daniel Yin: 18:21 Our filter costs around $24 and because we’re the only local manufacturer here in Uganda, we’re able to provide the filter at less than one third of the other imported water filters sold here. To make this even more affordable to the population here in Uganda, we offer a financing plan as well. So and that requires, you know, just a $7 down payment with the weekly payment of one and a half dollars. With this financing plan we’re able to reach even the base of the pyramid customers.

Paul Matovu: 18:54 You know, most people know buy firewood and charcoal to boil their water. And so our impact reports actually show that households save a lot of money by using our, our product.

Edie Lush: 19:07 The weekly cost of the Spout System is no more than and is often less than the cost of fuel to boil the water, which is what people were doing before.

Pause: 19:19 [background music]

Paul Matovu: 19:19 We installed water filters on islands and other rural communities. Last year alone, we stored over 30,000 filters in more than 4,000 households. One of our pilot programs was on the island called Bavooma Island. It’s on Lake Victoria, where people were suffering from biohazia and there were also many cases of diarrhea and typhoid. So we partnered with RTI, which is an international organization that has an office here in Uganda, and we found that after our intervention, the kids attendance in class increased by over 36%. This was attributed to the fact that, uh, about 98% of the students who are now taking water from our filter. And so, uh, beyond just the statistics there is this particular lady, I remember the name, she’s called Joy, she’s over 80 years old and she has more than five grandchildren. And prior to our intervention she had reported very many cases of diarrhea and typhoid. But then after one year of using our product, she reported that uh, high expenditure on waterborne diseases had reduced drastically and also she didn’t have to spend money to treat her kids, her grandchildren for typhoid, diarrhea, and other waterborne related diseases.

Edie Lush: 20:44 How much money did they save?

Paul Matovu: 20:46 So on average households spend between $1.60 US dollars actually to $3 dollars per week just spent on boiling.

Edie Lush: 20:55 How do you think this filter helps to overcome extreme poverty?

Paul Matovu: 21:01 Wow. Um, when I think about poverty and how it affects our communities. It’s not just about people not having the money, but it’s also about people having to unnecessarily spend the little money they have on treating preventative waterborne diseases. So our product has helped people. One to not spend money on boiling, but also not to spend money on treating what have one diseases like diarrhea and typhoid. We have some cases where people spend more than $50 just treating typhoid. These are very, very underserved and impoverished communities. So I’m convinced that people are saving a lot of money in different ways. The other bit is that time is money. So when people saving more of their time, they can use the time to make more money. We found that it’s mostly women and the girl children who do the preparation of drinking water and so on. The side of the ladies where they use this time for is to go and participate in more economic activities. I would say like farming or crafting stuff that they can sell in the market. On the side of the kids, they use the time to read their books.

Claudia Edelman: 22:17 Once again, this captures how making progress in one area can lead to making progress in another. So progress on clean water leads to progress on keeping kids in school. Plus, less water boiled means less carbon used and you get the idea.

Edie Lush: 22:34 It’s like a virtuous circle. Like the SDGs. In fact, I asked Tanya at UNICEF whether innovation done within the right context is enough on its own to eradicate extreme poverty.

Tanya Accone: 22:47 No, it is not. Um, I think another couple of lessons that we have learned, um, but I think we’ve always have known that from the start is um, and it’s uh, it’s often said to be an African proverb, but as an African I tell you, I’m not sure that it is an African proverb, but you know, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. We’ve learned we need to go together. And that means being very rooted and making sure that you have experts in the context that you are designing with and for there together with strong partnerships from the best minds, you know in Silicon Valley, I’m using that as a, as a proxy for the private sector, for other kinds of public sector innovation and those parts of the ecosystem are incredibly, incredibly important. So you really need to be involving the entire ecosystem because you know the kinds of of challenges that we all are looking at triumphing over together in terms of the SDGs and you know, poverty reduction just being one but an incredibly important one. We can’t do that in a piecemeal way. So connecting, catalyzing and really collaborating is essential. We welcome people to reach out to us and explore how could we work together on something that would actually help to change the trajectory in a positive way of reaching the SDGs.

Claudia Edelman: 24:10 That’s our mantra, Edie, at the Global GoalsCast! It is all connected! We can only make it together! We only win when we all win!

Edie Lush: 24:21 Winner, winner chicken dinner. Speaking of which, there was big news this week about the Nobel Prizes.

Claudia Edelman: 24:28 I like the chicken connection to the Nobel Prizes, but I agree. Yes. There was this announcement from the chair of the Norwegian level committee, Berit Reiss-Andersen.

Berit Andersen: 24:39 As prime minister, Abyi Ahmed has sought to promote reconciliation, solidarity and social justice. The Norwegian Nobel committee hopes that the Nobel Prize will strengthen Prime Minister Abyi in his important work for peace and reconciliation. A peaceful, stable and successful Ethiopia will have many positive side effects.

Claudia Edelman: 25:09 This fits right into our conversation about Goal 1 and eradicating poverty. I remember our episode about conflict and hunger. Conflict is one of the prime sources of poverty and hunger, so eliminating conflict in the horn of Africa opens a road not only to peace but also to eradicating poverty.

Edie Lush: 25:29 And that region from the horn of Africa West across the Sahel along the Southern Sahara desert remains one of the poorest and most stripe torn regions in the world.

Claudia Edelman: 25:39 The Ethiopian economy is already one of the fastest growing economies in the world and that is reducing poverty. But 20% of the population, which is more than 20 million people, by the way, still live below the poverty line. Many still don’t have clean water and of course conflict and violence have been around them all the time. So to leave the Ethiopians and the rest of the region out of poverty, we need both: an end to conflict and the innovation of homegrown solutions that Tanya Accone describe to us.

Edie Lush: 26:10 In just a few days after the prize to prime minister Abyi, a second Nobel Prize was announced that goes right to the question of finding approaches that work.

P. Fredrickson: 26:20 So this year’s prize in economic sciences is about alleviating global poverty or how to reduce global poverty is a fundamental but also daunting question. Effective policy alleviation requires that we can answer these questions and the most credible way of answering them is to try particular interventions in field experiments. This experimental approach has completely reshaped research in development economics. The results have a clear impact on policy and keeps improving our ability to fight global poverty.

Edie Lush: 26:58 That was Peter Fredrickson, chair of the Economics Award Committee, one of the three winners. Helene Dufour is a professor at MIT and she described her work,

Helene Dufour: 27:09 Our goal is to make sure that the fight against poverty is based on scientific evidence. It starts from the idea that often the poor are reduced to caricature and often people who tried to help them do not actually understand what are the deep root the problems that are addressing the poor. Poor people are supposed to be either completely desperate or lazy, or entrepreneurial, but we don’t try to understand the deep root and interconnected root of poverty. So what we tried to do in our approaches to say, look, let’s try and unpack the problem one by one and address them as vigorously and scientifically as possible. And that’s how we developed and use the experimental approach to better understand what are the reasons for particular problems. For example, the learning crisis that Professor Fredrickson was talking about and what can be done about it, what works, what doesn’t work and why.

Edie Lush: 28:11 Professor Dufour pointed out that while international assistance can be helpful, particularly during natural disasters or pandemic disease outbreaks, most of the resources for ending poverty will come from individual countries themselves.

Claudia Edelman: 28:25 Which of course is why they must use those resources wisely and effectively.

Edie Lush: 28:29 Which is another way of saying what Tanya Accone was saying. That context is king and what Helene Dufour and her two economics colleagues are saying when they insist that the fight to end poverty be based on solid field research and not just good intentions.

Claudia Edelman: 28:44 What I like is there seems to be a real urgency, like momentum, traction in the announcements to awarding these prices now to send a message, not just to give an honor.

Edie Lush: 28:55 And the three economists are decades younger than the typical Nobel winners and prime minister Abyi has only been in office a year.

Claudia Edelman: 29:04 Yes, but it’s been quite a year! In his first year in office, Prime Minister Abyi ended the border conflict with Eritrea and worked to resolve all the regional conflicts which believe me are so deep and complicated. And he also took strong steps to open Ethiopia to economic and political change. He freed journalists from prison, welcomed dissidents back, and he has promised free elections next year. And Edie, we shouldn’t actually believe the honeymoon, but I am very optimistic about what’s happening these first year for Ethiopia.

Edie Lush: 29:36 Let’s not forget that he’s brought many more women into government as well.

Claudia Edelman: 29:40 Yes. As well as representatives of every religion, language and ethnic group, of which Ethiopia has many and that is a kind of inclusion that can sport innovations! And Ethiopia is so wonderful, so big on powerful, Edie!

Edie Lush: 29:57 I really want to go there and I think that we should go interview prime minister Abyi. What do you think he should invite us to come?

Claudia Edelman: 30:04 Prime Minister Abyi, if you’re listening to this episode, consider these an open, uh, space for you to send us an invitation for the Global GoalsCast with him in Ethiopia.

Edie Lush: 30:16 The Nobel committee made it clear they had chosen Prime Minister Abyi to inspire support for his goals as much as to honor what he’s achieved so far. And Professor Dufour accepted the award on behalf of what she called the movement for researched-based development policy.

Claudia Edelman: 30:33 There’s some sort of debate among some economists, Edie. Some point out that most of that extraordinary progress in ending poverty is simply the result of growth. As countries get richer, individuals become well at least less poor. So they argue that free markets, migration and trade will do the most to end poverty, not any other SDG policy.

Edie Lush: 30:57 It’s not either or, right? Ethiopia is one of the fastest growing economies in the world. Of course that helps, but without peace there would never be prosperity for everyone. How’s this going to turn out? Will these prices look prescient or premature? Can poverty really be eradicated in 10 years?

Claudia Edelman: 31:16 Well, we believe so. We absolutely… Were like on the optimistic team here. We’re on the possibilistic team here. If we would actually follow the SDGs and we accomplished the 17 goals and the 169 indicators, by the majority of the world, we will eradicate extreme poverty from the world completely! But what we cannot promise is that people will do it, that countries will follow it. What we can promise is to follow the fight to end poverty right through 2030 in future episodes of the Global GoalsCast.

Claudia Edelman: 31:54 Now for the section of this show where we give you the three facts that you can show off with your mother-in-law and the three actions to guide your to do list for today…

Edie Lush: 32:03 I actually do want to know is your mother-in-law impressed when you show off with the three facts?

Claudia Edelman: 32:12 [laughter] I do showoff with some facts. I tell you there’s no sexier thing than to have some data points to back up any evidence in there in the argument.

Edie Lush: 32:20 So you heard it here. Data is sexy! [laughter] Okay, so joining us for that welcome. Saskia Bruysten, co-founder and CEO, Yunus Social Business.

Saskia Bruysten: 32:33 The first fact is that there is some great progress happening. Extreme poverty has halved in the last two decades. That is fantastic news, but we need to keep in mind that moving out of this bracket still means to only live on $1.90 a day. If the world managed to cut this number by half, we should be able to reduce the amount of poverty to zero by 2030. My second fact is that last year, 26 individuals earned the same amount of money as 3.8 billion people who make up the poorest half of humanity. Despite the fact that extreme poverty has been going down, inequality has still been rising. Billionaires now have more wealth than ever before. While only 5% of all new income generated from the global growth trickles down to the poorest 60%. My third fact is that poverty can be addressed by business. This may not seem logical at first, but we actually really need business if we want to make big changes. You’ve heard earlier in the episode about Spouts of Water, which addresses one problem of poverty, the lack of access of clean drinking water through a social business approach. But there are many other social business companies around the world that address important issues like clean energy, health, education, or even just creating income or jobs for poor or the marginalized. I wanted to leave you with three concrete actions that you can take yourself. So number one, to find out more about practical social business solutions, to end extreme poverty, please read my co-founder, Mohammad Yunus’ book: “A World of Three Zeros”. Number two, make sure your own savings, however small they may be, are invested in socially and environmentally responsible fund. Ask your banker or consider investing yourself in a social business that actively makes a change in the world. Go to organizations like Kiva… or go to Yunus Social Business funds. Number three, start your own social business or get your organization involved. Pick a problem that you want to tackle yourself and that you’re passionate about and start a company that addresses it. Or if you work for a large corporation, reach out to your CEO or your department, or your innovation team and ask them to consider setting up a social business.

Claudia Edelman: 35:17 This was incredible. Thank you to our guests and thank you all for listening. Please, like and subscribe via iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts from.

Edie Lush: 35:28 And give us five stars. We love the stars!

Claudia Edelman: 35:30 And follow us on social media @Global GoalsCast and see you next time.

Edie Lush: 35:34 Adios. Have fun in San Francisco.

Claudia Edelman: 35:37 Bye!

Presenter: 35:42 Global GoalsCast was hosted by Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman. We are editorial gurued by Mike Oreskes editing and sound production by Simon James. Our operations director is Michelle Cooprider. And welcome to our new intern, Tina Pastore. Music in this episode was by Neil Hale, Angelica Garcia, Simon James, Katie Crone, Ashish Paliwal, and Andrew Phillips. This episode of Global GoalsCast is brought to you by Mastercard, creating scalable solutions for sustainable and inclusive economic growth. Thanks, also, to CBS News Digital and to Harman, the official sound of Global GoalsCast.

Greta, CEOs join Global GoalsCast to Save the Planet


Is the zeitgeist shifting toward action to curb global warming and achieve the Sustainable Development Goals? Veteran Financial Times journalist Gillian Tett joins Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman to consider that question in the aftermath of the United Nation’s climate summit and General Assembly. While the actions of governments were disappointing, they see a new attitude among many businesses, who were far more engaged in UN activity this year. “The balance of risks in the eyes of many business executives have shifted,” says Tett. Many executives now think it is “riskier to stand on the sidelines and do nothing than to actually be involved in some of these social and climate change movements,” Tett reports. The challenge now is not whether to act but how. Edie completes her visit with Professor John Sterman at MIT, whose En-Roads computer model of the climate lets Edie identify policy actions that will hold contain heating of the atmosphere. “The conclusion here is it is, technically, still possible to limit expected warming to 1.5” degrees Celsius, Sterman concludes.

Facts and Actions come this week from Bradley Tusk, venture capitalist, political strategist, writer and host of the podcast, Firewall, which looks at the intersection of tech, politics and culture.

This episode is sponsored by BSR, a non-profit working with member companies to support corporate social responsibility. Check out their upcoming event here:

Featured guests

John Sterman

John Sterman is the Jay W. Forrester Professor of Management at the MIT Sloan School of Management, Professor in MIT’s Institute for Data, Systems and Society, and director of the MIT System Dynamics Group and MIT Sloan Sustainability Initiative. Prof. Sterman has published approximately 200 works spanning corporate strategy and operations, energy policy, public health, and climate change. Author of award-winning books and papers, he pioneered the development of interactive “management flight simulators” of corporate and economic systems, which are now used by governments, corporations, and universities around the world. These include the En-ROADS and CROADS energy and climate policy simulations, developed in partnership with the non-profit, Climate Interactive, which have been used by policymakers, negotiators, business and civil society leaders, educators and the public around the world. 

Max Boykoff

Maxwell T. Boykoff is an Associate Professor in the Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences Center for Science and Technology Policy Research at the University of Colorado, Boulder. He teaches in the Environmental Studies program and is Adjunct Faculty in the Geography department. In addition, he is a Senior Visiting Research Associate in the Environmental Change Institute at the University of Oxford. Max has ongoing interests in climate adaptation, cultural politics and environmental governance, science-policy interactions, and political economy and the environment. His research has been mentioned in a range of outlets such as Science, Nature, the Guardian, the New York Times, the Columbia Journalism Review, the Los Angeles Times, Christian Science Monitor, Grist, Utne Reader, La Razon (Spain) and National Public Radio (US). Check out his new book Creative (Climate) Communications: Productive Pathways for Science, Policy and Society and follow him on tweeter @boykoff

Bradley Tusk

Bradley Tusk is a venture capitalist who protects startups from political risk. He is the CEO and founder of Tusk Ventures, the first venture capital fund dedicated to working with and investing in startups in regulated industries. His fund, Tusk Ventures, has now worked with and invested in dozens of startups like Bird, FanDuel, Lemonade, Circle and Ripple. Bradley previously served as Mayor Bloomberg’s campaign manager in New York City, Deputy Governor of Illinois, and Senator Chuck Schumer’s communications director.

Laura Gitman

Laura is a global expert on corporate sustainability, with two decades of experience in strategy consulting and has advised senior executives at global companies across a range of industry sectors and sustainability issues. Laura has also been a leader in BSR’s organizational growth and impact. She launched BSR’s financial services practice and New York office, and she is currently the Chief Operating Officer, leveraging her strengths in strategy, organizational change, and people management. Laura works with leading global companies to develop and enhance their sustainability strategies to maximize value for business and society. She is sought after to facilitate senior-level strategy workshops and multistakeholder collaborations. She has published reports on environmental, social, and governance trends among investors as well as sustainability integration and leadership. From 2006 to 2010, she facilitated the Electronic Industry Citizenship Coalition, growing the initiative from 15 to more than 50 companies.

Gillian Tett

Gillian Tett is the US editor-at-large and chair of the editorial board, based in New York. In this new role, Tett works to shape FT’s global editorial strategy and opinions, organizes Editorial board briefings and writes two weekly columns covering a range of economic, financial, political and social issues throughout the globe. Tett plays a key role in developing FT’s US growth plan and initiatives.

From 2014-2019, Tett served as the US managing editor, leading the FT’s editorial operations in the region across all platforms. She previously served as assistant editor responsible for the FT’s markets coverage and US managing editor from 2010-2012.

This episode was made possible thanks to the support of


Greta Thunberg: 00:06 How dare you? You have stolen my dreams, my childhood with your empty words.

António Guterres: 00:15 So more and more people are feeling that climate change is impacting on them today. And this is changing public opinions. Governments have less of less influence in countries as a whole.

Gillian Tett: 00:26 To the balance of risks in the eyes of many business executives have shifted from it’s riskier to stand on the sidelines and do nothing than do actually be involved in some of these social and climate change events.

Prof. Sterman: 00:38 So the conclusion here is it is technically still possible to limit expected warming to one and a half. It’s time to fight. This is not going to be easy, but it’s gotta be worth it.

Edie Lush: 01:06 Welcome to the global goals Cast, the podcast that explores how to change the world. Ah! What a week you could feel the tensions, protesters in the streets. Greta Thunberg lecturing the world from the general assembly podium and the secretary general rallying the people to pressure his own bosses, the governments of the world.

Claudia Edelman: 01:27 We are here to walk you through what just happened during climate week called UNGA or the global goals week. And to present to you part two of Edie’s effort to save the world from a catastrophic warming on the climate interactive computer model at MIT.

Edie Lush: 01:43 That’s right. It was incredible to watch the real world argue how to curb climate change and compare that to the lessons I learned from the climate simulation.

Claudia Edelman: 01:53 We will have all of that and a special guest from the Financial Times, but first, this.

Presenter: 02:03 This episode of global goals cast is brought to you by BSR, building a just sustainable world. Join BSR, November 12th through 14th in San Jose California to hear innovative companies are navigating a new climate for business and paving the way for people and planet to thrive in an era of unprecedented change. BSR Thanks to CBS news digital and to Harman, the official sound of the Global GoalsCast.

Claudia Edelman: 02:39 We’ll come back. I’m Claudia Romo Edelman.

Edie Lush: 02:42 And I’m Edie Lush. To help us sum up climate week, we have brought in reinforcements.

Claudia Edelman: 02:48 We’re so glad to have our friend and colleague from the financial times, US editor at large and just launched Moral Money. Gillian Tett. Welcome to the program.

Gillian Tett: 02:58 Great to be here.

Claudia Edelman: 03:00 This is my 16th General Assembly Week and it is the first time that it felt mainstream that more people cared than the usual suspects.

Gillian Tett: 03:08 Well, I will get a medal for surviving 1615 general assembly weeks. But what was striking about this year was that in the past UN General Assembly Week has happened somewhat in a bubble of governments and nonprofits. And that was kind of really it. This year Business and finance and all of the associated groups around them, including the financial times were all over on Goal Week for the simple reason that the UN recognizes it needs to reach out to the business and financial community. And at the same time, executives right around the world are suddenly setting up and taking notice of what the UN is doing.

Edie Lush: 03:49 So Gillian, one of the articles you wrote last week was about how climate change could cause a new mortgage default crisis That’s clearly something pretty cataclysmic for the financial markets. Tell me about that.

Gillian Tett: 04:04 Well, the key thing to realize is that as the discussion about climate change gather steam, increasingly you’re seeing a lot of mainstream consultants and financial analysts and investors doing some pretty urgent modeling to work out how climate change could impact their portfolios going forward for both good and bad. And one of the areas where they’re increasingly doing modeling is looking at the impact of climate change on residential properties, which are vulnerable to say flooding on the East coast of America and asking questions like if there was a lot of flooding, what would that mean for the value of those properties? What would it mean for mortgages? What would it mean for the insurance companies and the banks associated with that? And you suddenly start to see a series of chain reactions that could be potentially quite serious.

Claudia Edelman: 04:56 And you mentioned about the computer modeling brings us exactly to the center of what this episode is going to be all about. By the way, Edie and you have done simulators, I have a FOMO of not having been in one. So I want to hear all about Edie. So Gillian, stay with us so that we can talk a little bit later about the rise and success of moral money,

Edie Lush: 05:17 But right now we’re going to give Claudia a little more FOMO as we pick up my conversation with John Sterman. You’ll recall he’s professor of management at MIT. Last episode I worked with him on his climate interactive model to see if I could design a set of actions that would prevent catastrophic warming. Let’s just say we left the world hanging at the end of the last episode.

Claudia Edelman: 05:41 Kind of like Climate Week.

Edie Lush: 05:42 Which of course is exactly the point. The model and the real world are scarily in sync. Professor Sterman told me how he’s broken down locks in the simulation that just maybe offer ways to break deadlocks in the real world. He told me about one session from a few years ago with a delegation from China.

Prof. Sterman: 06:03 Their view at that time officially in China is, listen, you developed countries, you created this problem. You have to cut your emissions. We, developing nations, you cannot tell us that we can’t do what you did. That’s amoral and we’re not going to have it. So we get to keep burning fossil fuel until we become as affluent as you are. So their proposals were large cuts from the United States, large cuts from Europe and all the other developed countries and very little from China, India, and the other developing countries. And I showed them that under that scenario Shanghai would be almost certainly inundated. Shenzhen would be inundated and they would lose their biggest and most important cities and centers of economic activity. And at that point I said, so what does this mean? And there was a long, long silence and I asked again, and another long silence. And then, somebody spoke and what I heard translated in my hear piece was: it means we have to leave the past in the past. And what he meant was: yes, it’s true, the Western developed nations have contributed the most to this problem. But if we want to save our country, we have to cut also. And what’s important about this is if I had stood up and said that and said, you must cut, because look, even if I cut emissions from the developed nations a lot, you still lose your big cities. They would have folded their arms and shaken their heads and because you can’t tell people these things. Instead what happened was they were completely free to choose any path of emissions they wanted to. So I was just showing them what happened with their own proposes. So they saw the consequences of their decisions. And I think that’s the only way these kinds of insights are going to arise and really have an impact.

Edie Lush: 08:27 All that happened just before China and the United States negotiated a bilateral agreement in 2014 to reduce carbon emissions. Ideal to set the stage for the Paris Climate Treaty. But now the biggest disagreements are between countries but inside one country. [Music] And have you had similar teaching moments on Capitol Hill in the US?

Prof. Sterman: 08:53 Yes. So I’m not gonna mention any names, but since the beginning of this year, I’ve presented this model myself and my team-mates to about 38 members of the Senate, to staff in the House and the Senate, from both parties, and senators from both parties as well. And I just got to tell you, nobody wants to hear yet another expert come and show them a thousand PowerPoint slides about what’s going to happen if they don’t take action. It’s just doesn’t work. But when you do this interactively, people get very excited and it’s… these are all very, very busy folks. But the meetings typically run lot because they are eager to see what happens if I do this, what happens if I do that? How can we get there? What does it mean in the real world?

Edie Lush: 09:49 So that’s why this simulation is so valuable. You can experience the real world impacts inside a computer and then return to reality with a much better grasp of what’s needed. When we took a break, we’d brought the temperature down from just above 4°C warming to 3°C warming. So we’re not doing too badly, but we’ve already lost New Orleans, lost Shanghai. So, that’s not looking so good. Does everyone who does this find it as difficult as I am?

Prof. Sterman: 10:26 In a word? Yeah. Most people are surprised that it’s as difficult as it is to get down towards 2, and people come at this with different positions on the political spectrum. Some people like pricing carbon, some people like a more regulatory approach, but it doesn’t matter. There’s no one lever that you can pull that gets you all the way there. We will see… if you can get us where we need to go Edie.

Edie Lush: 10:58 Oh my goodness. Okay.

Prof. Sterman: 11:00 But yeah, it’s hard.

Edie Lush: 11:03 14% of greenhouse gas emissions comes from transportation. So let’s look at energy efficiency in transport. So this is cars, trucks, that kind of thing?

Prof. Sterman: 11:17 Well, it’s all modes. So it’s cars and trucks. It’s trains, it’s also shipping and aviation. And all of those have and can have more improvements in energy efficiency. So let’s pull that lever. I’m going to pull it just about as much as I pulled the lever for energy efficiency in buildings. So we were at 3. You pull it out here we’re at 2.9. So it helps, but there’s a couple of reasons it doesn’t help more. Unlike buildings, it’s generally not possible to retrofit cars and trucks, aircraft and so forth. So you know, you bought an SUV, you’ve been driving it around for a few years in the United States, that car is going to last for 16 to 20 years. You might not own it that long, but somebody is going to be driving it, and that old car continues to be driven around using the same inefficient engine as before. So that helped!

Edie Lush: 12:18 A 10th of a degree of Celsius. So what about the electrification lever? What happens if we..

Prof. Sterman: 12:25 Transport?

Edie Lush: 12:25 Transport? Yeah!

Prof. Sterman: 12:26 Great. So this would be a move towards electric vehicles. So let’s pull that lever and we can highly incentivize it. Not all the way. And that got us another 10th of a degree.

Edie Lush: 12:40 So we’re now at now plus 2.8°C increase. Goodness. I thought getting electric cars was going to do more than that. That is surprising to me.

Prof. Sterman: 12:52 So why do you think it doesn’t have more impact? I’ll give you a hint. Look back here on the mix of energy sources.

Edie Lush: 13:01 It looks like we’ve still got coal and oil still… at least a pretty big mix there.

Prof. Sterman: 13:07 Electrifying transport definitely reduces the amount of oil, especially in the second half of the century when all those existing cars and so forth are replaced and as electric cars have become cheaper and more capable and more widely available. So, it definitely reduces the size of the wedge of the oil. What about the coal? By the end of the century, we’ve got a lot of clean green, renewable energy, but between now and 2050, there’s still a lot of coal still being used. One of the challenges here is can you green up the electric grid faster? So how could you do that?

Edie Lush: 13:51 Can we tax coal? Can we move to nuclear?

Prof. Sterman: 13:55 Sure.

Edie Lush: 13:55 I feel like I’m getting slightly desperate here! I feel like we have to save the world in 20 minutes! I’m not sure if we’re going to get there!

Prof. Sterman: 14:02 No need for desperation! Let’s tax call. You tried that before. One thing you can do is simply stop building any new coal infrastructure, no new mines, no new electric plants powered by coal, etc. In what year do you think we could implement a policy that would essentially stop the construction of any new coal powerplants?

Edie Lush: 14:27 Around the world? Goodness. 2025, 2030.

Prof. Sterman: 14:33 Well, let’s try 2025. You can change it at anytime you want, and let’s see what that does. You can see the coal is going down much faster now.

Edie Lush: 14:42 The coal wedge definitely goes down. We’re still holding it 2.7 plus, + 2.7.

Prof. Sterman: 14:50 2.7 now. So everything helps.

Edie Lush: 14:51 Ok!

Edie Lush: 14:51 You could also accelerate the retirement of existing coal plants. That helps a little bit. But the economics of new coal plants and existing ones are unfavorable generally speaking. But I think this makes a very important point. Even if coal production were to peak next year, 2020, which is what’s happening now, it takes a while before all that coal disappears and is driven out of the energy system by renewables and energy efficiency. And in the meantime, all that CO2 is still accumulating in the atmosphere. Now you mentioned nuclear. So just as we’ve subsidized renewables, we can also subsidize nuclear, and well, let’s just do it and see what happens. So first of all, we’re at 2.7. So now subsidize nuclear about the same as the renewables. So what happened?

Edie Lush: 15:50 Nothing happened.

Prof. Sterman: 15:51 Almost nothing. Right? Temperature didn’t go down.

Edie Lush: 15:54 Nope, we’re still at +2.7.

Prof. Sterman: 15:56 Let’s figure out why. So let me subsidize nuclear a whole heck of a lot more. So now we’re getting a lot of nuclear.

Edie Lush: 16:04 Right.

Prof. Sterman: 16:05 But it only notched us down less than a 10th of a degree. So we’re at 2.6 something. But why? You know. So take a look at this graph of primary energy production and let me back up all the way to where there’s no nuclear and there’s a huge wedge of green energy now. Right? So now let’s heavily subsidize the nuclear.

Edie Lush: 16:32 I see. So by subsidizing nuclear, you’re actually cutting into the renewables, but not doing very much to impact oil and gas.

Prof. Sterman: 16:43 You’ve made a great observation here. A lot of people think, well before I pulled the nuclear lever, I’ve got this giant wedge of green energy, wind, solar, hydro, geothermal. With the storage you need to make it useful. Even when the sun’s down and the wind is not blowing and now we’ll add nuclear and if we can get a certain amount of nuclear, it’ll add to the green and we’ll be better off. But in fact what happens is you do get more nuclear, you have to subsidize it very heavily, but it squeezes out the green and you’re not really getting any significant net increase in carbon free energy.

Edie Lush: 17:24 Ok!

Prof. Sterman: 17:24 And it’s very clear that this, this would happen, right? If nuclear energy becomes cheap enough that the market wants it, then it’s going to be cheaper for a utility to do that than to invest in wind farms and utility scale solar so they won’t.

Edie Lush: 17:47 Okay, so let’s look at protecting the lungs of the earth. As Macron said the other day. So we want to reduce deforestation and let’s also plant some trees. Let’s increase the number of trees in the forests. What happens there? We’re at 2.7°C increase now.

Prof. Sterman: 18:11 So I’m going to put in a moderate reduction in deforestation and that was worth a 10th of a degree C and if we go a little farther, you can see emissions come down a little more and a very large reduction. Yeah, it helped a bit.

Edie Lush: 18:28 Okay. So we’re at plus 2.6. Yup.

Prof. Sterman: 18:31 So that helped. Now let’s plant some new trees on previously deforested land. And so that’s afforestation and that’s… I’ve got medium growth here. That’s we’re down down to 2.5 and we could do more. So that helps. Absolutely helps. So this graph on the bottom shows how much carbon dioxide is being removed every year by those trees, the new trees, as they grow. And well what do you notice about that?

Edie Lush: 19:05 So it takes a while for the CO2 to be taken out of the air. So really till you’re planting them now, it’s just before 2040 that you start to see any increase in removal of carbon dioxide from the air.

Prof. Sterman: 19:19 Right.

Edie Lush: 19:20 So I guess it takes a while for trees to grow.

Prof. Sterman: 19:23 Absolutely right. So you know, when you start a massive afforestation program, then you plant a million seedlings in a day, which I believe Tanzania just did. That’s fantastic. But those seedlings have almost no carbon in them next year. Maybe they’ve doubled in size, they still have almost no carbon in them. They don’t really start to remove carbon until they become rather large. And it takes, depending on the species and the climate, a hundred years before they’re really starting to store a lot of carbon. Afforestation is a great thing to do, but it doesn’t help in the near term.

Edie Lush: 20:09 Okay. Here’s another great thing to do. Let’s take a brief break to hear from someone. We’re very positive about. Laura Gitman, the chief operating officer of BSR, a global nonprofit that works with its network of more than 250 member companies and other partners to build a just and sustainable world. I asked Laura if purpose alongside profit was an idea that is going mainstream.

Laura Gitman: 20:36 I think it’s a redefinition of profit and a redefinition of purpose. I think it is redefining what it means to have a profit. Where, how are those profits distributed? You paying taxes? Or is the community that is contributing to your profit? Are they benefiting from those profits? And so I think it’s, it’s a more fundamental restructuring of the role of business itself, as well as a fundamental recognition that business is a critical player in helping society achieve its overall purpose. So a perfect example of this is the climate strike, which started more as a school strike with Greta Thunberg. But now we’re seeing employees from Amazon, and Microsoft, and Google walking out in support. So it really is employees standing up for what they believe in and what they expect their companies to be able to support and to demonstrate to the world their commitment.

Edie Lush: 21:34 And Laura, you’ve got an event coming up in my home state of California. Tell me about it.

Laura Gitman: 21:39 We do. So BSR has our annual conference. This year it will be hosted in San Jose on November 12th through 14th.

Edie Lush: 21:48 To learn more about BSR and to attend their conference, go to

Claudia Edelman: 21:59 Welcome back. When we left Edie, She limited temperature increase to 2.5°C above the pre-industrial level.

Edie Lush: 22:09 So the clock is ticking. We’re at 2.5 degrees increase now. What about agriculture? Because I know that we get a lot of methane emissions from cows from the front end. I know that there’s a big push to reduce meat consumption. What does that do when we pull that lever?

Prof. Sterman: 22:31 You’re absolutely right. A lot of the methane is coming from the technical term being enteric methanogenesis, but more popularly known as cow burps. Also, the nitrous oxide is coming from agriculture much of it. So let’s pull that lever and let’s have a moderate reduction in the methane.

Edie Lush: 22:51 Wow. That made a big change. So we’re now at +2.1°C or +3.8°F. That was a big one. Why is that?

Prof. Sterman: 23:02 So first of all, cutting the emissions from agriculture is feasible with technology we have today. You mentioned several things that would need to be done, reducing food waste. The IPCC in the UN and others, FAO estimate about 30% of all the food produced in the world is wasted. Even small reductions in that reduce the need for land, for agriculture, for uh, fertilizer, for all the fossil fuel that goes into cultivation and harvesting and processing. So that makes a big difference. Secondly, shifting to a less meat intensive diet for those who find that to be attractive, that can help a lot. You don’t have to become a vegan, but even cutting back your beef and meat consumption a little bit, not only make you healthier and ease your food budget, but it reduces methane and nitrous oxide emissions that come from livestock. So this is something that can be done and it makes a big difference. You’re almost there!

Edie Lush: 24:04 We’re almost there! We’re at 2.1. We haven’t pulled the lever yet on electrifying buildings in industry. What does that do when you pull that lever and what is that all about?

Prof. Sterman: 24:16 So it’s analogous to electrifying transport. It’s what I did in my own house here where we completely ripped out the fossil heating system, put in those air source heat pumps that are powered by electricity, which in my case is coming from our solar. But in general, that means you’d be running your heating and cooling your buildings, entirely with electricity. So as we’ve green the grid here, we get climate benefits. So lets do that and I’ve got about the same degree of electrification for buildings as we have chosen for transportation. And where are we now?

Edie Lush: 24:55 So we’re now at 2° increase Celsius, which is what the Paris Accords have put as the upper limit, which is good. I have to say though, we’re still not at 1.5 to stay alive. So I still feel like there’s something else we got to do.

Prof. Sterman: 25:11 Right. There’s a couple of options. We could try a higher carbon price. So let’s just do that.

Edie Lush: 25:16 It was at $50. We’re now putting it at $100 a ton.

Prof. Sterman: 25:20 So that’s about 90 cents a gallon, in the United States, which would leave the price of gasoline still well below European levels today. And it’s phased in gradually over a period of a decade. So people would have time to plan and adjust. And that got us to 1.9. There’s other ways to do it. So one of the things we haven’t tried is what if there’s a radical new technological breakthrough?

Edie Lush: 25:48 Like, what?

Prof. Sterman: 25:48 We have this lever here we call new tech, new technology. So what would it be in the real world? Well, it might be fusion, it could be an advanced next generation nuclear fussion technology. And maybe it’s something we haven’t thought of yet. Artificial leaf for, I don’t know, iron man’s arch reactor. So, because so many people believe that if we just had more R&D, we could come up with a breakthrough like this and make fusion feasible or make one of these other technologies feasible and then that would solve the problem. So what we’ve assumed here is when I pull this new tech slider, we’re getting a 100% carbon free energy source that’s going to be cheaper than coal. So let’s try it. So I’ve got a pretty big breakthrough here right now.

Edie Lush: 26:43 Huge breakthrough.

Prof. Sterman: 26:43 It’s this orange band.

Edie Lush: 26:43 A new tech band has appeared on your global sources of primary energy and absolutely nothing has had happened to the temperature of the earth. It’s still at 2°C!

Prof. Sterman: 26:57 So why is that?

Edie Lush: 26:59 Because it’s taken away from bio energy and renewables it looks like, or bio energy and nuclear. Yeah.

Prof. Sterman: 27:08 So this is quite interesting what you’ve just discovered. So I could make it an even bigger breakthrough. And now there’s a gigantic amount of this new tech, but it only is worth a 10th of a degree because you’ve squeezed out even more. So here’s the dilemma. New tech will grow sooner and faster if it’s really, really cheap. But the cheaper it is, the less nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, and the less efficiency people are going to invest in. New tech is so cheap. Why would anybody want to spend the money to insulate their home or put good windows into their home? Because their electric bill is going to be way, way lower. So you’re getting a… compensating effect, or a rebound effect.

Edie Lush: 27:59 Okay. And what about changing the assumptions about consumption? We know from our final episode of season 2 that we have this unsustainable ratio of 32 to one so Americans are consuming 32 times what an average Kenyan does. Can we fool around with that?

Prof. Sterman: 28:17 We can! So I’m showing you a graph of GDP per capita in each of the big regions and countries of the world, the U S European union, China, India, other developed and other developing economies. And if we reduce the focus on consumption, we do in fact slowed down the rate at which affluence continues to grow. Nobody’s getting poorer here, they’re just getting more affluent at a somewhat slower rate.

Edie Lush: 28:50 All right, so I’ve got us below 1.9°C, but it’s not enough for the, the low lying island nations.

Prof. Sterman: 29:00 So your carbon price is still pretty low at $50. Pretty low relative to what might be needed to get big changes in energy use and more renewables out there. So let’s increase it and we’re at 1.9, 1.8, I’ll make round this off here. I’ll make it $170 a ton. A lot of economists believe that’s in the ballpark of what might be needed. And we phase it in gradually, and you can give the money back to the people. And then, you know, one of the unfortunate realities of the fact that we’ve waited so long to do all this is that it’s very, very hard to get much below 2 unless you have what’s called negative emissions. And so we do have over here the different negative emissions technologies, like bio-energy with carbon capture and storage, like bio char, direct air capture and agricultural soil sequestrations, etc.

Edie Lush: 30:07 So this is under the broader, broader theme of technological carbon removal. What happens when we pull that lever?

Prof. Sterman: 30:15 It actually does quite a lot. And if I, if I pull it most of the way towards what various experts believe is the maximum that could be done.

Edie Lush: 30:29 We’ve now hit 1.5 degrees! Gosh, that was a close.

Prof. Sterman: 30:32 Yeah! congratulations.

Claudia Edelman: 30:37 Wow! Edie, you made it. But technically possible is only part of the challenge, right? It is politically possible to keep warming to 1.5°C.

Edie Lush: 30:47 Step one is to show it’s possible, giving hope and encouragement to those willing to roll up their sleeves and try. I talked about that with professor Sterman. Jonathan Franzen and just the other day said, we should just give up. It’s over. We’ve lost the fight to contain global warming. So seen from our work today, he’s wrong! And we shouldn’t give up and there is a reason still for optimism despite the current political climate.

Prof. Sterman: 31:18 So I think he is wrong. I think it is still possible technically to limit the expected warming and even if this turns out to be somewhat over optimistic, whatever we do makes for a safer world for ourselves and our kids and for all the kids then giving up. So I just utterly reject his approach. I mean one way to think about it is if you believe as he does that it’s too late, that people are never going to learn to cooperate. They’re never going to take the actions that can make such powerful differences as we’ve seen here, they’re never going to overcome the political interference of the fossil fuel industry. If you believe that you are going to get to be right because you’re not going to do a darn thing about it. And so do you want to be right or do you want to make a difference? I think we can make a difference, but we’re only gonna make a difference if we stand up and take action. And that action has to be personal. Insulate your home. Put solar on your roof. It has to be professional work to have your company become more efficient and get off of fossil fuels. And it has to be as a citizen, we aren’t going to succeed without collective action. It just makes no sense to give up. It’s time to fight. This is not going to be easy, but it’s gonna be worth it!

Edie Lush: 32:50 Another way to put it is this. Not the time to roll up our trousers and get ready for the floods, but it’s time to roll up our sleeves. No, not a great joke? Okay. Max Boykoff, at the university of Colorado, has a new book on how humor can move people to action while bad news just depresses them. Here’s an example from Jimmy Kimmel.

Special Clip: 33:11 “Attention galaxy! Planet Earth is going out of business! We’ve lost our minds and everything must go! Insane deals on everything on Earth. Panda bears! Giant sequoias! Large inflatable ducks! Portugal! Porcupine! Oceans! 50% off nocturnal animals: insects, reptiles and amphibians! Unused home gym! Artificial pine tree! St Patrick’s Cathedral! Bats! Other bats! Salmon! Tide pods! But you must act fast because Planet Earth is over soon and when it’s gone, is gone!”

Claudia Edelman: 33:42 Wow. all right. So both of you, Edie and Gillian, first of all, it’s so great to be able to have our conversation after the craziness of the UNGA & that we’re like able to reflect and, and talk to the audience that is not able to be here in New York and give them a sense about like how big this is. But both of you have done computer modeling, so how did that change your mindset?

Gillian Tett: 34:05 Well, people are forever modeling the outlook for the economy, and demographics, and the recently things, the energy standard demand, and all kinds of macroeconomic variables in businesses already. It’s really been just recently though they began to do it in relation to climate change. They should probably should have done it many years ago. And that’s really having impact not just inside the C-suite, but also amongst investor committees, and also amongst regulators. I can’t stress this strongly how significant, what the actions of central banks are right now, in terms of trying to concentrate minds inside the financial sector, because when you look at these models and think about the potential for defaults or asset price impairment, they are very significant.

Edie Lush: 34:48 So what I learned from this simulator was first of all, how every action that you can take, so whether it’s taxing coal, planting trees, whether it’s protecting trees, whether it’s worrying about population, they all start to impact each other. So you think you’re doing something great and actually it’s not great at all, or it doesn’t have as much of an impact as you thought it would on bringing the increase in the temperature down. It was really hard to keep that temperature from increasing, mostly because of the collective effort that it’s going to take to do just that. And I actually wanted to ask you guys, what was your impression from UNGA from the whole week about the promises from governments?

Gillian Tett: 35:32 Well in some respects what happened is that it quite disappointing because we didn’t see a lot more announcements. The Chinese who many people have been looking to for action essentially are so concerned about their domestic economy slowing down right now that they deliberately did not put themselves at the stage of this debate and of course the U.S. Administration is currently denying that climate change is really an issue at all. However, if you look around the edges, there were some encouraging developments, whether it’s a fat that the British government is increasingly trying to redefine the concept of aid and channel people’s pensions in the UK towards more socially positive in types of investments. If you look at the fact that the regulators and central bank governors are moving ahead with efforts to force the financial system to really get involved in trucking climate change, there are all kinds of measure that are happening one level beneath the very top presidential suite, which are very important, but anyone looking for the big bang, unfortunately we’re going to be disappointed.

Claudia Edelman: 36:33 And nevertheless, I do feel that these UNGA managed to get a zietgiest. There’s something that changed in the way that we see these things as relevant.

Gillian Tett: 36:43 The fear in many C-suites, many corporate boards, many investment committees is if they don’t get engaged in these issues, they’re going to suffer reputational damage. Their employees will be unhappy, they might lose money on their portfolios, their businesses could suffer. And so the balance of risks in the eyes of many businesses executives have shifted from it’s riskier to stand on the sidelines and do nothing than to actually be involved in some of these social and climate change movements.

Claudia Edelman: 37:10 And that is how you launched Moral Money.

Gillian Tett: 37:13 Well, absolutely. I mean, we first started looking at the idea of doing a special website, a newsletter around green issues, socially responsible business issues quite long time ago. And we’ve thought a couple of years ago was quite a minority, interest topic in the sense that it was really only mattered to people who were actively investing in a way that wanted to deliver social change. And then early this year, we realized that actually the rise of what people called environmental social and governance issues, ESG issues, was actually convulsing almost every corporate board and investment committee and bank across the Western World, because it’s now become part of risk management in the sense that businesses and financers know that if they ignore ESG issues completely, they actually run big risks now. We did a survey recently of our readers to see why they were signing up to it and reading it. So, voraciously, and what this shows is that the vast majority of people think that these issues, ESG, environmental, social governance issues, are really important to their jobs. But also the vast majority of people who responded, and they were mostly mid level employees, most of them don’t actually know how to make sense of it. So all we’re trying to do is find a way to cut through all these acronyms and get a sense of companies and individuals and employees can do to, at best, promote these new ideas and build a better world, but at least at worst, avoid the risks of ignoring them.

Edie Lush: 38:49 The other conversations that I’ve had last week but also actually in Davos, Gillian, were about how it’s still tough for the C-suite to figure out how to support the Sustainable Development Goals because there’s still so much work to be done around setting standards. So I wonder if you saw some movement last week around that.

Gillian Tett: 39:09 That’s certainly a lot of concern inside the C-suite and investment committees about just how difficult it is to actually take this sustainable development goals and turn it into an action plan. I’m in the argument right now isn’t about why, it’s really about how. Now the good news is that actually efforts to look at the accounting issues and the management issues and rating issues are really accelerating right now. There’s an explosion of innovation and competition amongst private sector companies to provide solutions. And the even better news is that a lot of big companies are now stepping up to try and provide this demonstration effect. There was a group of 17 companies which call themselves the Business Avengers after the Hollywood characters who are promising to take a lead in this respect, but still a long way to go.

Claudia Edelman: 39:57 Business Avengers. I love that. As long as they look as hot as the real Avengers. So thank you so much Gillian Tett for being here.

Edie Lush: 40:09 Thank you Gillian! Now facts and actions, usually we take a global view, but this episode has led us to something a little different. As John Sterman said, it is technically possible to contain global warming, but is it politically possible, especially when the government of the largest economy in the world is in gridlock for facts and actions on the deadlock over climate in the United States, we decided to turn to a multi talented guy. He’s a political strategist of venture capitalist and the host of the podcast firewall here is Bradley Tusk.

Bradley Tusk: 40:48 Hi, this is Bradley Tusk and I am giving you 3 facts and 3 actions from my perspective on climate change. The first one is the most obvious thing you’ve heard all day, which is Congress is wildly dysfunctional. There is no ability to pass or move or change anything and it really comes down to two reasons. One is because of gerrymandering, the vast, vast majority of elections are decided in primaries, not in the general election and the primary because turnout is really low is usually a contest to see who is either the most left wing or right wing depending on the district. The problem is, as a result, when you have 15% turnout in primaries, you’re mainly sending far left wing and far right wing members to Congress, for whom compromise or getting things done. It’s a lot less important than ideological purity. The second is the status quo that you can’t solve climate. To do anything meaningful climate, you’re gonna need legislation, which means compromise on a carbon tax or a much higher gas tax or a carbon sequestration funding. All of that means moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats working together. And third, if you’re on the left or the right, it’s not in your interest to change this. If ideological purity is what you care about, that’s kind of what gets you up in the morning and gets you out of bed, get you reelected, helps you raise money. So those are the facts. So what can you do about it? Three actions. The first is we need support moderates from both parties. I’m an independent. I think both parties are wildly corrupt. Most of my giving and voting tends to be for Democrats. But I do look to find moderate Republicans to support as well. Because if we don’t have moderate Republicans, then we’re never going to have the ability to get anything done and climate or any other issue. The second is we fundamentally have to reform the way that we vote in the first place. So the reason why things are the way they are, it’s why every policy out produced the result of a political input. I want to turn out, it’s 15% most primaries in most districts are gerrymandered. Politicians know that they have to keep that 15% happy at the exclusion of everyone else. But imagine turnout were 60 or 70% in the primary, then you’re trying to keep the mainstream happy and I was trying to keep a small vocal minority happy. How does that happen? If people can vote on their phones? How does that happen safely through the blockchain? So there have been now experiments run in West Virginia, Denver and Utah where deployed service men and women have been able to vote on their phone over the blockchain in elections. They have all got extremely wealth, the national cybersecurity center has ordered each of them and found that the elections were secure. As that trend continues, that becomes your opportunity to radically increase turnout in primary elections, which ultimately leads to more moderate candidates, more consensus, and then getting actually things done. And the third is more of a personal thing, but just don’t worry about passing anyone else’s litmus test but your own. Don’t worry about being considered woke. Everyone loves to have standards and that you have to meet in their purity tests, but their purity test is totally glued to their own self interest. It’s not about right or wrong, it’s about what’s good for them politically. It’s about what’s good for them economically and the only thing that matters is what you believe.

Edie Lush: 43:42 Before we go, thanks to our guests Gillian Tett and John Sterman. To find out more about John’s En-ROADS Climate Solutions Simulator, go to that’s

Claudia Edelman: 43:57 And thanks for listening. Please like and subscribe, wherever you get your podcast and follow us on social media at Global GoalsCast. See you next time. Bye Bye! Adios!

Edie Lush: 44:06 Adios!

Presenter: 44:13 Global GoalsCast was hosted by Edie Lush and Claudia Romo Edelman. We are editorial gurued by Mike Oreskes. Editing and sound production by Simon James. Our operations director is Michelle Cooprider and welcome to our new intern Tina Pastore. Music in this episode was by Neil Hail, Angelica Garcia, Simon James, Katie Krohn, Ashish Paliwal and Andrew Phillips, who just won an Emmy for his music on “Stolen Daughters”, the HBO documentary on the girls kidnapped by Boko Haram. Congratulations, Andrew. This episode was made possible with the support of BSR also CBS News Digital and Harman, the official sound of Global GoalsCast.